From creator/executive producer/director/writer/co-showrunner Justin Simien, the Netflix satirical series Dear White People explores the universal story of finding one’s own identity against the backdrop of a predominantly white Ivy League university where racial tensions are always bubbling just below the surface. The 10-episode second season continues to follow a group of Winchester University’s students of color as they navigate the social injustice, cultural bias and political correctness (or lack thereof) in the millennial age, using brutal honesty that can be both heartbreaking and hilarious (and sometimes both at once) and that holds up a mirror to society.

During this in-depth 1-on-1 interview with Collider, filmmaker and storyteller Justin Simien talked about a wide range of topics, including how Season 2 of Dear White People evolved, what’s most impressed him about his cast, how Lena Waithe ended up on the show this season, guest casting, what he’d like to see for Season 3, how he put together his writers’ room, lining up the directors for each season, and keeping the show as real as possible. He also talked about his horror satire Bad Hair, which TV series he’d like to direct an episode of, the creative impact and inspiration of Donald Glover’s “This is America” video, and how he came to be directing the pilot for Lena Waithe’s Twenties, for TBS. Be aware that there are spoilers discussed.

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Image via Netflix

Collider: Well, let’s get to the most pressing matter first because, when I spoke to you about Season 1, you had said that while you were waiting to hear about a pick-up for Dear White People, you were working on developing a few other projects and we talked about how you must absolutely make a sci-fi musical, since the world needs that desperately. Since then, have you thought of any ideas for this sci-fi musical that has to happen?

JUSTIN SIMIEN: It’s not a sci-fi musical, but I’m making a movie, called Bad Hair, this summer and it’s a horror satire about a woman who is slowly being possessed by her weave. It happens in the late ‘80s against the backdrop of the rise of New Jack Swing. So, while technically it’s not a sci-fi musical, it’s a horror film with heavy musical elements, so it’s a step in the right direction. It’s a baby step. Maybe the sci-fi musical will be the third film. I don’t know.

We still need the sci-fi musical, but that movie sounds amazing!

SIMIEN: Oh, it’s gonna happen! It’s definitely gonna happen!

I want it to happen because then I want it to be a Broadway show, after that.

SIMIEN: Right. And then, it can be a movie again.

In the meantime, Bad Hair sounds awesome. I can’t wait for that!

SIMIEN: I know! I can’t wait! I’m so giddy to make it!

When you go to people and say, “I want a make a horror movie about hair,” do they think you’re insane or are they like, “Please, sign me up for that,” because it is so original?

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Image via Netflix

SIMIEN: Well the funny thing is, this actually started because I was sitting and talking with the financier and producer of Dear White People about this movie called The Wig, and how in Korean and Japanese horror films, there’s this sub-culture of hair possession movies. We just started riffing and joking, saying, “Oh, my god, how funny would that be in America?” I just laughed it off as a ridiculous idea, but then, slowly but surely, this satirical take on it started to blossom in my head and I came back and was like, “Guys, I have a pitch.” They were pretty receptive of it, but it wasn’t really until Get Out came out that people realized what I was talking about when I said, “You know, a horror-satire about the black experience.” Now that we have Get Out, people are like, “Oh, my god! Totally!” People get it now. But it’s wild and it’s gonna be really fun. Like everything I do, it comes out of me being angry about something, and I’m angry about the B.S. that black women have to go through, and that we all have to go through, to live up to these standards of beauty. And I grew up on horror movies. Little Shop Of Horrors is on of my favorite musicals. So, that clicked in my head as the thing called Bad Hair.

That’s awesome! Well, looking back on Season 1 of Dear White People, when do you feel like the show was at its best, and how did you want to build on that for Season 2?

SIMIEN: Well, I think the whole thing works, as a whole. Episode 5 is such a take-away because the episodes that precede it lull you into a sense of comedy and comfort, as it’s an introduction to the world, and then black comes at you real fast in Episode 5. I love the Lionel episode, with Troy and Lionel going to the bar, that Charlie McDowell directed. I didn’t direct it, but seeing Charlie direct the Lionel episode was like therapy for me ‘cause I could see all of these weird little perks of being gay and black in someone else’s hands, and it was nice to sit back and watch him do it. But I think that the show is always at its best when it’s in its most complicated, non-binary place, where you’re not really sure who is right and there isn’t really an answer, and you’re left with this visceral experience of it, and you have to go out in the world and talk about it and figure out what to do. We just tried to find a way to have those moments, in every episode, and still build to something, which I think we do, but also really treat each episode as a way to go as deeply into the characters, as we did with Reggie in Episode 5 or with Coco in Episode 9.

I love Episode 9, in Season 2, where you took Sam home to deal with personal tragedy, because I thought that allowed you to get so much more personal and it was just such a great episode.

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Image via Netflix

SIMIEN: It also talks about how complicated this black and white thing is because we’re all talking about racism, and we should be talking about racism and how to end it, but at the end of the day, this is a social construct that is being applied to us, and it’s messing up our families and our communities. The fact that Sam feels alienated from her dad because of this thing called race, and that her and Gabe, who want to be with each other can’t. I wanted to get at that without talking about it, but just show it. That opportunity allowed us to see past Sam’s persona, as a talking head or a mouthpiece, and get into the things that make her click and that make her ashamed and that make her happy and that she lives for. I felt like we really owed her that.

When we spoke about Season 1, you told me that you had a great idea for what Season 2 would be and that you felt really connected to what it should be about, but that you also wanted to keep it loose. So, how closely did Season 2 follow the plan you had for it? Does this Season 2 look like what you thought it was going to be?

SIMIEN: To a degree. In the aftermath of the so-called alt-right response to Season 1, I was really, really fascinated by that. After I wrote my Medium article about why I named it Dear White People, I went undercover in some of those spaces and found a lot about how they work and how some of it is very crafted and organized to create a sense of outrage between communities that is actually artificial, but is masquerading as authentic. I just thought that was so interesting and I felt so connected to that. But then, on the other side of it, at the same time, we were reeling from the response to the first season and I wanted to do independent research and really get into where this idea of whiteness came from, in the first place. I realized that the connection between where we are now and where we’ve always been is that misinformation, fake news, and secret societies and networks of people has always been in the DNA of the country. The reason why we’re able to celebrate Thanksgiving is because, in no meaningful way, do we really acknowledge the genocide of the Native American people, and the reason why folks can walk around and say, “These Black Lives Matters kids are terrorists and they’re just causing trouble, and if everyone would just stop talking about race we’d be fine,” is because they don’t have a clear understanding of what happened after slavery and after the Civil Rights era and why the prison system became disproportionately geared towards black men to serve economic gains in the late ‘60s and ‘70s. People don’t understand our history. That phrase, “We’re as sick as our secrets,” just felt like we were talking about the same thing, so I knew that must be the basis for the series. But we also had the benefit of having actors that have lived as these characters, and writers who had written in these voices. There was a lot of room for discovery and to bring things to the table that we wanted to explore and talk about, that we just didn’t get a chance to get into. Because we only have 10 episodes, there’s always stuff left over. We still have stuff from Season 1 that we’re waiting to do. It just created a lot of material that felt really relevant and fresh, with what we’re dealing with right now.

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Image via Netflix

Now that you’ve had two seasons with this cast, what has most impressed you about them, the work they’ve done, and the way that they’ve grown with these characters?

SIMIEN: I’m always impressed by the sense of community between the cast. It’s really easy to be that attractive and talented and be assholes, and they’re just so kind. The show is an ensemble. Everyone has a moment, but not everyone gets a moment in each episode, in the same way, and the way that they support each other’s moment is so cool to watch. They’re really supportive and they really care. Nobody is showing up just to get a paycheck. Everyone is showing up because they deeply care about these characters and about what the show means in the world, and it makes it so rich because, at a certain point, we’re looking at them just as much as they are looking at us, to influence where the characters go and what we talk about.

I know you guys are tight, but how exactly did Lena Waithe end up on the show, this season? Did you create that character and then think of her, or did you collaborate with her on the character?

SIMIEN: Well, since the movie, I’ve been trying to get Lena into the world of Dear White People. Our Season 1 happened at the same time that she was making The Chi. And then, all of the sudden, Lena is this huge actress and superstar, which we all knew she was gonna be, but it just happened. We’ve always wanted to do it. I’ve always wanted her in the world of Dear White People. So, for Season 2, it was like, “How do we make it happen? What’s your schedule?” I pitched a few things to her and pitched a few things to the writers’ room, and we came up with something that would fit her schedule and that she thought would be fun. Everything that Lena and I do tends to be a collaboration. We tend to run things by each other. But this was one of those things where I threw a few things at her and she loved it, and she came in and killed it. The work she was doing would inform where we were going with the character. I knew I wanted her to not just do a cameo, but have somewhat of an arc, and she was down for that. I’m just so glad we got to pull it off, between her schedule and mine. 

It’s a really fun, funny role!

SIMIEN: Yeah, she really, really ran with it. Everything this season is about secrets. You have this lesbian, and I wouldn’t even say lesbian, I would say person whose gender presents as more male and who people assume is gay and who thinks that they’re hiding it from the world. That is so common in the black community. It is still very difficult to be black and gay at the same time. So, it was just a fun pop culture way of talking about this idea of secrets and how it effects us in our personal lives, and showing that when you confront your secrets on a public scale, that actually does have a cultural effect. The characters in Dear White People are watching her and are influenced by her, and I thought it was a fun way to weave a little sub-narrative throughout all of the fun we have parodying other shows and, in my way, celebrating other shows.

When I spoke to her for Ready Player One, Lena Waithe told me that you were going to be directing the pilot for her TBS series Twenties. How did that happen?

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Image via Netflix

SIMIEN: Well, okay, I didn’t know we could talk about that yet. Perfect, I can talk about it now. I did the pilot presentation. This was back in the day, when I did the trailer concept for Dear White People and we were all just in this space of, how do we make our own door? She had been working on this show, called Twenties, which was fabulous, and we just decided to make a pilot presentation. That was the beginning of Twenties, and it’s actually been some years since we did that. We shot a few scenes, and that helped us get the ball rolling. It’s one of those projects that we’ve been talking about wanting to do together, for years, and it just so happens that our careers are aligned in a way where we can make that happen. These are her characters, but I’ve been living with them in my mind, too. I know how to shoot it, and she knows what I would do with it. We have a really great working relationship, and my job is to honor her vision. Frankly, it’s really wonderful to step outside of my own so-called vision and just do the job of filmmaking. I really enjoy that.

I’m curious, if you could direct an episode of any show on TV, what would you want to direct and why?

SIMIEN: Immediately, I’d go to Atlanta because I think it’s such a wonderfully dark, unique world. In a lot of ways, it’s like an anthology series. We’re following a group of characters, but each episode exists in its own reality, so I think it would be fun to do that. It feels like only one of a few shows where I would get to direct an episode like a filmmaker, really telling an individual story. I think of things like Westworld, and other big, epic sci-fi things, but right now, in my life, I just want to express, as an artist. I feel like Atlanta would just be such a fun playground to tell a story in Donald’s world. So, Donald, if you’re [reading this] . . .

After seeing the “This Is America” video that Donald Glover put out the other day, how does something like that inspire you, as a filmmaker and storyteller?

SIMIEN: I think what it inspires me to do is to let go of any remaining ideas about what I’m supposed to and what I’m not supposed to do. The last thing you should do, as a pop star, is to basically condemn pop music through your work. It’s so bold, it’s so unflinching, and it’s so uncompromising, down to the fact that Donald is there, shirtless, doing all of these movements and face contortions, and not really explaining any of it. That’s very bold, and it’s very bold at a time when we’re still grappling with the definitions of what a black persona should be in the media, what a black comedian is, what a black actor is, and what a black R&B or hip hop artist is. Remember, Eddie Murphy couldn’t really come out with Party All the Time, and do singing and comedy. We couldn’t take it. We couldn’t reconcile the two. And so, for Donald to do all this shows me that there’s nothing I can’t do. This is not following any typical album release strategy. He literally just made a moment of his time on the stage, and it’s really, really inspiring, especially ‘cause the work is so good. There’s stuff that he and Hiro [Murai] are doing in that video, filmically, that is just so daring, with the depth of field, the way they use the zoom lenses when they choose to cut, the way it’s shot, the way it’s choreographed, and the way it’s lit. Donald’s performance is so rich. He’s channeling James Brown, Michael [Jackson], Jim Crow, all of these kids online with their dance memes, and Stepin Fetchit. It’s wild, how complete it is.

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Image via Netflix

It’s hundreds of years of history in one video.

SIMIEN: In a little snapshot. And the lyrics, he’s just taking hip-hop phrases and saying them. It’s a great song. It’s not trying to be a hit song, it’s trying to say something. Even just the structure of the song, he goes from singing this very happy, tribal, “We just want the money,” song that’s then juxtaposed with this trap song that really is just like, “I gotta carry guns, I gotta make the money.” It’s the stuff that we are literally indoctrinated with, every time we turn on the radio. I just think it’s brilliant. It’s a piece of art, from top to bottom. And I'm just glad we live in a world where he gets to do that ‘cause if he gets to do that, that means I get to do that. I get to go further. I get to do something crazy.

Which is awesome because then we get to watch it!

SIMIEN: I know! And the other part is that I get to watch it. I don’t have to be the only one making it, or trying to be like, “Hey, guys, there’s a whole bunch of us that want this thing.” Especially for that to follow Dirty Computer, which followed Beychella, which followed Kendrick, as scary of a time as it is, there are some really exciting things happening. So many of us felt such a responsibility, after Trump won, to not misuse our platform and to say something important with it, and I think you’re seeing the fruits of that. There’s a sense of urgency that a lot of us are feeling, and I’m just glad I get to be a part of that conversation. I’m glad [Season 2 of Dear White People] came out the weekend that happened.

How do you think all of that will affect a third season and what you say with it, if you get to continue the show?

SIMIEN: I think it allows me to go further than I even maybe thought I could get away with going because it keeps pushing the bar higher. There’s nothing more exhilarating to me, as an artist, than to chase a bar. I don’t think of it like sports, like I bested so and so, but I really enjoy telling stories, I really enjoy cinema, and I really enjoy getting better at it and pushing myself to say it in a different way. It reminds me of performing arts high school. You’re surrounded by things that encourage you, and then you get to put stuff out there that encourages other people. It’s just this really cool feedback loop that I think is challenging us all to be really better.

You’ve said that you would want to direct an episode of Atlanta, but is there a director on another show, whose work you’ve been watching, that you would want to have direct an episode of Dear White People?

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Image via Netflix

SIMIEN: Wow! Well, we got Kevin Bray. I was a big fan of his. I don’t know. There’s a lot of folks that we’ve gone after. We tried to get Regina King to do an episode. I’m obviously a fan of Dee [Rees] and Ava [DuVernay]. Steven Caple is another guy who’s really awesome. He’s doing Creed II. But there’s also a bunch of directors working in television whose names I don’t even know because if they didn’t do anything in the feature world, I don’t know them. That’s the thing that’s been exciting. There are a lot of really great artists, in that space, who are just waiting for the right opportunity, and there’s a lot of young ladies on the come-up, who are really exciting to me and who maybe haven’t gotten their shot, but I know that they have something exciting to say. I’m always looking for a discovery. Steven Tsuchida is a great example. He has made two very compelling episodes of my show, in two seasons, and he hadn’t really had the opportunity to do what he did in my show, on other shows.

How do you line up the directors for each season?

SIMIEN: Well, everyone’s got a list. I’ve got a list, Netflix has a list, Lionsgate has a list, and the agencies all have lists. And then, honestly, it comes down to who’s available. You cross a lot off quickly ‘cause you’re like, “That’s a crazy idea!” And then, there’s only so many people available. I can just feel it when I meet with them, if they’re the kind of artist I feel like can play in this very specific playground that I’ve created. You’ve gotta be willing to take what I’ve done and riff off of it, and trust that I’ve got you. If you hit a parameter, I’ll let you know, but I want you to bring something that is uniquely you to the episode. This is not a comfortable set where you just fall in and have fun with the cast and paint by the numbers. This is not that show. I’m expecting nothing less than cinema, every episode. So, at the end of the day, there’s only a small group of people that are available and interested and right for that. More often than not, I’ve gotten to work with the ones I wanted to work with.

Is it the same situation, when you’re putting together the writers’ room and finding people that have their own voice, but also understand your voice?

SIMIEN: Yeah. The writers’ room is like casting because I wanted to put together a group of people who were going to have interesting conversations and have different perspectives, too. I wanted to put people in a room that didn’t agree with each other about what it means to be black, or anything, but also were very smart, could write, were funny, and have different senses of humor than I did. You’re just trying to find the right sauce and the right formula. Also, with the budget, it’s tricky ‘cause people are at different levels and they get paid certain things, so it’s a bit of a puzzle to put together. We have a really small room. We’re a family and everybody’s signed up for multiple seasons, so we get to keep working with each other, which is good.

Does this show feel much more like putting a puzzle together, in deciding which character gets their episode and when?

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Image via Netflix

SIMIEN: It does, but it also feels like putting together a big movie because it’s Netflix and, from day one, we never had to do a model pilot. I wanted to center on one character at a time, and they gave me the canvas to do that. It is a puzzle, but in the best way. I love a good multi-protagonist movie, so I approached this show like a five-hour long, multi-protagonist movie. This cast is so good that it’s always just tip of the iceberg ‘cause there’s so much talent there.

I absolutely loved the last scene between Sam and Lionel, in Episode 210. What do you enjoy most about their dynamic?

SIMIEN: It might be subconscious, but I’ve always felt, since the movie, that those characters belong together, for some reason. Lionel and Sam seem so socially different. They’re not pitted against each other, but they’re in very different spaces, socially. There’s just a simpatico about them that I have always found attractive. When we were talking about secret societies and I wanted to create this jewel box mystery, where you have to keep re-examining things that you think you know and revisit the past, the idea of the two of them venturing into this total unknown and thinking, “Okay, we’ve both been thinking black and white, but is there a gray area that we have never thought about before.” The mystery of that could go so many places. I certainly have an idea of where I think it should go and where I’d like it to go, but then you have to figure out who’s available. We’ve set it up so that it could go to a lot of different places, and hopefully we can go there.

If you get to do Season 3, will we see Giancarlo Esposito some more?

SIMIEN: We can’t possibly not pick that thread up, but there are some financial realities of doing a show with Giancarlo Esposito. Not going to lie about that. But, I have a number of things that I would like to do. Right now is my listening time. I’m just listening. I’m listening to the kind of conversations we’re having, and I’m listening to the response to the show. I’m really just absorbing right now. I’m in study mode again, just to make sure that what I want to talk about is worth talking about and that I have something new to say about it. Just like with Season 1, we left the room with all of these ideas, but I like putting them away for a bit and going, “Okay, but what else, though? What else could we do? What else could we try? What else is going to crack people’s faces open, if we do it?” My favorite part of the process is figuring out what I haven’t thought of yet, and then doing that.

You also have a conservative pundit in your story this season, with some genius casting for that role. Was that character inspired by anyone, in particular, and when that happened, did you immediately know you wanted Tessa Thompson to play that role?

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Image via Netflix

SIMIEN: One of the things I thought would be cool from the jump was to get Tessa [Thompson] and Logan [Browning] in a scene together. Tessa didn’t not do the show because she hates Dear White People. There’s never been any love lost. She really is quite a fan of the show and, obviously I’m a fan of her, and we just wanted to work together. Sam is always dealing with the balance between her activist persona and figuring out who she is and what she wants in her life. I thought the idea of confronting a literal doppelganger of herself would be exciting. So, when I first started to think about what Tessa could do, I knew I wanted them to have a stand-off in Episode 10. I was at home and the words just started to come. I don’t even know where they came from, but this whole idea of, “There but for the grace God go I,” where Sam realizes, “This could actually be my future,” yet maybe they’re talking about different ideological things, is what I think she’s afraid of. I just thought about how interesting it would be, if that was literally personified by the girl that used to play her. And they’re both phenomenal actors, so it really was, “One day, I hope I get to film this scene.” We worked backwards and figured out that we could get her, and we made it work. It was very difficult, but she was such a trooper and is a consummate professional. She made it work, and I’m so grateful she did.

I love how real this show is. These people don’t feel like characters. They feel like real people that would get really mad at me, if they knew I was eavesdropping on them.

SIMIEN: Yeah, that’s the idea. It’s also a very written show. These kids are hyper-articulate, so it’s even more difficult to make them sound real. We do a lot of passes. I feel like I have a bullshit detector. Every time I come across something that just feels scripty and like something that you would say in a writers’ room, and not quite how a person talks to another person, it’s my job, on that final pass, to try to dig out all of that and say, “Let’s do this in a way that feels real, or in a way that I haven’t seen yet.” That’s the role that I’ve taken, as showrunner. It goes out into the world, but then it comes back to me, and I take that red pen out. That’s a challenge. I’m not gonna lie. It’s the thing that keeps me up at night. I’m like, “Did that sound real? Was that funny? Was that too cute? Was it too contrived?” That’s the thing that I’m always nervous about.

Your cast says that there are pieces of all the characters in you, but they feel that you’re most like Sam and Lionel? Do you feel like you know their voice best?

SIMIEN: I don’t know that I know Sam’s voice the best. I know Lionel’s voice, inside and out. Sam has aspects of her that I think are actually better suited to some of the women in the room, but in terms of the experience of feeling like you’re a brand, as well as a person, and in terms of feeling like because you don’t look like one of your parents that you’re not right and that you don’t belong here or there, I certainly relate to that. I certainly relate to what it feels like to be an angry person of color, trying to figure out how to tell stories, but also figuring out who I am, at the same time. I definitely get that conundrum. And I certainly know what it’s like to date a white guy, but to also feel very black, at the same time, and people not knowing what to do with that. There’s a lot of me in Sam, but at this point, there’s a lot of Logan [Browning] in Sam, too, and there’s a lot of the writers in Sam. I’m sharing her with a few other brains.

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Image via Netflix

Is this the type of show where you store up ideas? Are you always looking for the things that inspire or enrage you, to put them into Dear White People?

SIMIEN: The thing is, I don’t really have to look that hard. It just comes at me. The show, in a lot of ways, is a backwards diary. As much as there are race things on my mind, there are also really random things, like a housewife thread that runs throughout this entire season, or an obsession with James Baldwin. I pour in a lot of things into the show that I’m interested in. It always comes back to this dichotomy between being an American and having to play into whatever role you need to play into to survive in America, and figuring out who you really are. I tend to read and explore the world through that lens, so by the time we get into the writers’ room, we are all bursting with ideas and influences and concepts that would be fun to craft narrative out of. Then, it’s just about making sure that there is a consistent thing that we’re talking about that we can anchor onto. It’s like a journal, where you don’t know which characters are me, or which ones are the other writers, but all of our little secrets and obsessions are in the show. It’s important to the show.

Well, I appreciate you talking to me again. I loved this season and had so much fun with it. I’ve been so anxiously waiting for it to be back, so I appreciate how great Season 2 is.

SIMIEN: I’m glad I didn’t let you down!

Dear White People Season 2 is available to stream at Netflix.

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Image via Netflix