From Academy Award-winning creator/executive producer Dustin Lance Black, the ABC eight-hour miniseries When We Rise chronicles the real-life personal and political struggles of a diverse group of LGBT men and women who helped pioneer the movement, from infancy through today. At a time when our civil rights are again being questioned by a leadership who prefers to rule through fear, it is very important to take inspiration from others who have fought and succeeded, and lived to tell about it. The miniseries stars Guy Pearce, Mary-Louise Parker, Rachel Griffiths, Michael K. Williams, Ivory Aquino, Austin McKenzie, Emily Skeggs, Jonathan Majors, and Fiona Dourif.

During this 1-on-1 interview with Collider, impassioned filmmaker and social activist Dustin Lance Black talked about barely surviving the immense production of When We Rise, wanting to improve on the criticism he received over Milk being too focused on gay white men, how it breaks his heart that this subject matter is as relevant as it is today, why this story can appeal to everyone, what he hopes the younger generation will take from watching this, what he’s most proud of when it comes to the end result, and why it was so important to him to have a diverse group of writers and directors involved, behind the scenes. He also talked about developing two projects for HBO, a TV movie about Bayard Rustin and a mini-series about Charles Lindbergh.

Collider:  This must have been so massively enormous to take on. Did it feel that way, or did it come pretty easily, as far as the story you wanted to tell?

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Image via ABC

DUSTIN LANCE BLACK:  Are you even kidding me?! I would come home from work, or I’d Skype with my fiancé at night, and each night, I think the most common sentence was, “I think this job is going to kill me.” What we decided we were going to do, and ABC was brave enough to take on, was to tell four period piece movies, in a row. As you watch, it continues to skip time, almost until today. And this is ABC, which is network television, not a place that can spend the time and the money that some of the subscription based channels can. We had limitations with time and money. It’s only thanks so an incredibly brilliant and generous group of artists and actors that were able to pull it off. We were able to get the best costume designer and production designer there are, and they did it at an ABC price. And the same with all of the actors. To highlight the production difficulty, we wanted to be able to shoot in San Francisco and Vancouver. We had a little over a week to shoot the exteriors for all of the episodes in San Francisco, and in that time, we were shooting four and a half decades with four directors and two completely different casts who were playing the same characters. It was a juggling act, for sure, but we were all very dedicated. The production was about what the show was about, and I think that motivated people to go on. I’m just now starting to recover.

When you wrote Milk, could you ever have imagined that you’d be revisiting some of that same material and delving into all of the history surrounding that time period, so much deeper, for yet another project?

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Image via ABC

BLACK:  There was a criticism of Milk that I found truth in, which was that it was focused on gay white men. My answer to that was always, “Yeah, that’s what the Castro was.” It was gay, but it was also misogynistic and racist. And every time someone said, “Why did you include this kind of person, or that kind of person?,” I said, “Well, it wouldn’t be accurate. But, I’m hungry to do that. I’m starving to do that.” I would encourage them to go tell more stories about the LGBT movement and all of its diversity. But when I heard that ABC was starting to gobble up LGBT history properties, I told my agent that I wanted a meeting. That was difficult for me to believe that ABC was interested in this area. I couldn’t save Milk to save my life. I charged all of the development on my credit card. And here was the network I watched, as a conservative Christian military kid in Texas. I was allowed to watch ABC ‘cause it told family stories. I thought, if ever there was a moment to do this more comprehensive, more diverse, thorough look at the LGBT movement, the place to do it would be ABC because we wouldn’t be preaching to the choir. So, I went and looked those executive at ABC in the eye to see if they meant it, and not only did they mean it, they said I could go research it for a year, to figure out whose stories I would even tell. That, to me, told me, right off, that the ABC network was ready to do this, and to do their best to do it right. How do you turn away from that? I think my agents and business managers all wanted me to ‘cause they knew I would go broke doing it, which is true. But, it was a once in a lifetime opportunity. It breaks my heart how pertinent these stories have become. If you turn on the news today, it’s heartbreaking how necessary these stories have become.

As a filmmaker and storyteller, you want any project that you do to be relevant, but at the same time, does it sadden you to know just how needed a project like this is right now?

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Image via ABC

BLACK:  Lives are at stake. People are dying. People are certainly being hurt, individuals and families. I am not a sociopath. I would give anything in the world – anything – for this to be less relevant. It absolutely breaks my heart. When I see and hear the things that I’m seeing and hearing, and not just for LGBT people, but other minorities and women, I know, firsthand, how it feels when you’re listening to those messages in isolation and in unfriendly areas. And I know there are things that young people will consider doing to spare themselves that pain. Those decisions can be ultimate. So, I’m glad that we have this message out there. It should be noted that the series starts with young people coming from other social justice movements, and not just the LGBT movement, and it ends with grown-up versions who have found strength and know-how in the LGBT movement, taking those tools and resources to help bring their brothers and sisters in other movements up with them. The series doesn’t end with LGBT equality. It goes all the way to healthcare and immigration.

This is a story of heartbreak and hope, with tears, laughs and inspiration. What would you say to people wondering if this is a story that would appeal to them?

BLACK:  I had the challenge of this being on ABC, and they have a proud history of addressing social justice subjects and being able to appeal to a wider audience. When you examine how that is, it’s the same answer that I found in our fight for marriage equality, which is that you better put politics, policy, the Constitution and science on the side burner, if you want to appeal to people beyond your own movement. Frankly, what I wanted was to appeal to people like my family, in what some call that “other America,” so I knew I better tell personal stories, emotional stories and, if possible, family stories ‘cause those stories are universal. The show doesn’t sit there and wallow in politics, policy, the Constitution or science, even though those issues are addressed. The thread that it follows is the thread of family. These characters lost families, they made the makeshift families they had to build when they were young kids, in order to survive, and then they had families they ended up raising. That’s a language that you can understand, whether you’re gay or straight, whether you’re a Democrat or a Republican, or whether you’re in the north or south.

What do you hope a new generation experiences from watching this, and what do you hope they take away from it, especially knowing that these were real people, many of whom are still alive? 

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Image via ABC

BLACK:  I designed it, in a couple of ways, specifically for a young generation. Many of these main characters are still alive. I wanted to send a young generation the message that you can live lives of purpose, you can fight for your fellow man, and you don’t have to die at the end. I’ve made that movie. I also wanted a young generation who’s tuning in to understand that these events really happened. That’s why, in the script, it said the words “archival footage” repeatedly. Dear alt-right who’s online today, dissecting the trailer to say these things never happened, you’re lying. Those are not the facts. And we included archival footage to show a young generation that these things really happened. Young people rose up, fought back, and created change. Your voice is powerful. You can create change. And I also wanted it to be a road map to say, if you’re going to rise up and create change, you’ve gotta do it together. You see the building narrative of how we become more and more powerful, the more we work with others. Gay people are more powerful when they work with lesbians. We become more powerful when we’re L, G, B and T. Hopefully, people come to understand that the title, When We Rise, means that the only way to beat back a backlash is to focus on that “we” and to come together with their brothers and sisters in other social movements. In isolation, you can’t beat back a backlash. That’s going to take an understanding of the connections between social justice movements. I hope they take that away, and I hope that they continue to make their voices heard and take to the streets, and that they show up for other people’s marches, even if it might not be the group they think they naturally belong to.

With all of the years you’ve spent on this now, what’s it like to see it all come together in this way, with this cast? What are you most proud of, when it comes to the end result?

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Image via ABC

BLACK:  It’s really difficult for me to sit and watch anything that I do because I always think about what’s there, and what there could be to make it even better. But I think the fact that we were able to tell these stories that have had such an emotional response at the film festivals that we’ve shown them at, I’m incredibly proud that we were able to get it done, and get it done on ABC. Working with that studio wasn’t always easy. That was tough, but we survived it. I’m incredibly grateful to the universe that, four years ago, we made a lot of good decisions that created an incredibly effective guide for a new generation to come into the fight, and a call for an older generation to return to it. I’m not psychic, so I’m grateful to the universe for setting us on this journey, four years ago, so that we could arrive now, at a time when it’s so necessary.

This is also a cast of actors that any feature film would love to have.

BLACK:  They’re great! Also, they were so much fun. They were an amazing group of people to work with. And it was not just the cast, but the real people, many of whom are still alive. They were there for my writer’s room, and they were there for the designers. It’s not always true, but it was a joy to work with this cast.

How do you move on from an experience like this? Do you have any idea what’s next for you?

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Image via ABC

BLACK:  My problem is always the number of hours in a day, not the number of things I want to do. I think there are a heck of a lot more stories to tell. I’m working on a couple of things, over at HBO, that are true stories. One is a Bayard Rustin film, and the other is a slightly more cautionary tale, in the Charles Lindbergh story. And there are some feature projects out there. There’s a part of me that would like to put down the pen for a year and do a little directing.

Are you going to try directing something next?

BLACK:  It’s something I do, anyway. It isn’t a secret that I’ve directed many commercials, and I directed the finale of [When We Rise]. We’ll see how that goes. The thing that happens is that I say that, and it’s what I’ve always wanted to do, but the kinds of projects I’m drawn to are not obvious green lights. Often, what I have to do is pen them, in order for them to get beyond the idea. So, who knows. We’ll see.

So, do you know what the next thing is that you’ll be going into production on?

BLACK:  I don’t know what will hit production first, no. I have The Residence, which is over at FX. That’s a TV series. The Bayard Rustin story is a TV movie at HBO. And I have a mini-series on Charles Lindbergh at HBO. Those are all scripts that are either complete or near complete, so we’ll see who turns the light green first.

Have you always found yourself drawn to the personal stories of individuals, throughout history?

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Image via ABC

BLACK:  I do believe that history is power. I’m not nostalgic. I don’t want people to think that I sit and dream of the past. I don’t. I think that history holds tremendous lessons. I teach a class, on occasion, on screenwriting and based on a true story screenwriting, and the first thing I ask my students is, what’s it about? Inevitably, they start telling me stories of a person. And I say, “No, what’s it about? How is this potent, if dropped into the culture, in three years? What do you want to say to the world in three years ‘cause it’s going to take about that long to get out there? What do you want this story to do?” If they can’t answer that, no matter how compelling the story is, I tell them to throw it away, save it for later, and wait until that story has power in the future, and not just interest in some nostalgic fashion. That’s the question to ask yourself, if you’re focusing on stories about history.

As a social activist yourself, did a project like When We Rise teach you anything about yourself, or has it changed the way you want to get involved, by learning about what the people before you did and experienced?

BLACK:  Yeah. First and foremost, I’m learning that it takes many, many more cups of coffee to keep me going, every year. Anybody who says that doing something based on a true story is easier, hasn’t written one because it’s very difficult, in terms of the research and figuring out how much you can bend that true story before the truth snaps. For me, I disappear from film and television, all the time. I vanished from making movies for three or four years, to tell stories on a different stage, which was the United States Supreme Court. That’s the same tools, by the way. How do you relate the stories of your plaintiffs and the people like them to the world, in a way that people who aren’t like your plaintiffs will understand and connect with? So, I took time off of telling stories on film and TV, to tell those stories in the courts. You don’t get Academy Awards or Emmys, but we did get marriage equality, which might be the proudest thing I’ve ever done with my life. So, learning not just the politics and the policy, but the path to victory, by having studied history, I draw from that. Sometimes I take it elsewhere. My poor agent and business manager have been very supportive, but they’re like, “You’re never going to get rich like this.”

Obviously, When We Rise is a passion project for you and you spent a lot of time developing and writing it. Were you nervous about finding the right directors to put those scripts in the hands of, or was it easy to find people you were on the same page with, like Gus Van Sant, Thomas Schlamme and Dee Rees?

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Image via ABC

BLACK:  To me, it was critical that we find people that could bring their experience to it. Certainly, I needed a team – not just with the directors, but with the writers who came in for the middle episodes – who weren’t just gay white men, like me. I needed people who would understand, in a personal way, the experiences some of our characters were going through. It was difficult, yes. It is harder work to find someone who’s not a white straight man in Hollywood, to direct or write. It is harder work, but it’s not impossible. It meant being a little more patient and having to lobby a little harder for certain people ‘cause their resume isn’t as long. But, it’s foolish for showrunners to not do that work to make their staff and their director’s list more diverse. If you read the diversity reports these days, you see that shows with more diversity are more popular, so wouldn’t you want that diverse cast to be more authentic. Might that help your show be even more profitable and successful? Well, to do that, you’re going to have to do the work to convince executive who are, of course, nervous because they’re putting a lot of money behind these people who might not have extensive resumes because of the catch-22 in Hollywood. So, it’s about showrunners being strong and standing up for women, people of color, and other kinds of minorities in the business to say, “They need to be included in my writers’ room, and they need to be included as directors on my show.” And not because it’s politically correct, but because it makes the show better, which gives it a better shot at succeeding. We needed that with this show. Me and my other gay white male producers had to stand up and fight to make sure that we had diversity, in every other part of this show. We did our best on this show, and certainly that paid off.

The eight-hour mini-series When We Rise airs between February 27th and March 3rd on ABC.

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