The Punisher Season 2 picks up right where the blood-soaked first season quietly left off, with human war machine Frank Castle (Jon Bernthal) suddenly finding himself without a war to fight and all out of people to shotgun in the face as vengeance for his family's death. Earlier this year, Netflix invited Collider and a few other journalists to the show's Brooklyn set to get a look at a sophomore season that is—if you can believe it—darker, more violent, and more bullet-riddled than before. In addition to getting a glimpse of Frank's junkyard trailer hideout he shares with a new teenage sidekick of sorts, Amy (Giorgia Whigham), we got the chance to speak to Bernthal, Ben Barnes, Amber Rose Revah, Jason R. Moore, Josh Stewart—who plays this season's creepy antagonist, John Pilgrim—who all confirmed that Frank Castle will never be able to hang up the old black-and-white skull vest for long.
In the following roundtable interview, Josh Stewart discusses what the season's newest antagonist, John Pilgrim, brings to the story, the character's devotion to Christian Fundamentalism and violent past, clashes with Frank Castle, and much more.
Question: So who is John Pilgrim?
JOSH STEWART: John Pilgrim is a fairly quiet, still person. On the exterior a man who is a Christian fundamentalist who had sort of a rage, a violent side of him. It’s buried deep. I think where this is all headed, that sort of side of him is going to resurface a bit.
Can you elaborate on the Christian fundamentalism? How does that define his character?
STEWART: You can look at the stereotypes of what Christian fundamentalism is. Your imagination would probably run pretty wild, right? So I think there’s some elements of that, maybe. There’s just...what’s true is true to him, and what is right is right to him, and what God says is what God says to him. I think if I get too much more into it then it’s going to start giving things away. But fundamentally, that’s it. It’s like the fundamentals of basketball. He pays attention to the fundamentals of it. He’s very by the book. With his past, I think that was the only way that he can...come out of that. Balance that side of him. It’s not something he can half-ass. It’s kind of like an addiction. You can’t kind of want to be sober and kind of not. So it’s all or nothing with him.
Can you say if this is delving more into cult territory or just organized religion?
STEWART: No, no, no. It’s nothing cult about it. It’s nothing like that. He’s just a guy who believes the word. He knows that he’s got to follow the word by the word or it would be too easy for him to go back to his old ways. If you’re gonna change you got to change. You can’t have one foot on the boat and one on the dock, you’ll end up in the river. It’s all or nothing.
How would you describe John’s relationship with Frank Castle?
STEWART: His past ways being a violent man from way back, in the TV show called The Punisher, I think those two worlds are going to collide in some capacity. That’s about all I can tell you.
What you were saying about Pilgrim’s completist fundamentalism, how he has to go 100% for everything, it sounds like kind of a perfect compliment for Frank Castle, who has a mission to get things done and do it his way and not stop until he’s finished. Do you think there’s a common ground that they have?
STEWART: I think in this world, we live in a grey. There’s no clear-cut this is one thing, this is another. Even though Pilgrim is a fundamentalist and he’s all that way, he comes from a completely different world. There’s that constant battle inside of everybody. It’s like the Thin Red Line, right? The greatest war is the war of the mind. It’s a constant fight. You can take that with so many characters in this world. What they’re doing today and the reasons they’re doing it completely contradict what they’re doing tomorrow. But it doesn’t mean there’s a wrong thing. It doesn’t mean that it’s bad or it’s good. It’s just what needs to be done in their mind, in their beliefs, in their way. To me, living in the grey is the more interesting place to play. Especially for an actor in storytelling. If it’s just the good guy and you’re gonna’ put on an effing cape and do what you’re gonna’ do. Superman’s gotta’ do a certain thing, or whoever the hell’s gotta’ do a certain thing. But if it’s this grey area, then we can talk about it. We can discuss…
Given that John is a Christian Fundamentalist, does he have any particular kind of feelings about what vigilantes are doing within this world?
STEWART: I don’t know that he has a specific feeling about “This is right, this is wrong” about what they’re doing. Again, he goes back to what the word says. He goes back to what he believes he’s being instructed by God to do. So whatever that is, that’s what he’s going to do.
Does he have any feelings about empowered individuals in particular given his relationship to his beliefs?
STEWART: He believes there is only one empowered individual.
Are you training for a lot of fight scenes?
STEWART: I [train] regularly. I used to box, I was a fighter in college.
Is that one of the reasons you wanted to be involved in this show?
STEWART: I’ve known Jonny [Bernthal] for a long time. We’ve been dying to work together. It’s always lent itself to these types of shows and characters. I play a lot of these types of things. The more physical, or what have you. It’s just what your nature is I guess is where you end up. Some people back there behind a curtain somewhere decide where they’re gonna’ stick you. And that’s where they stick you.
When you mention Christian fundamentalist, are you a reborn Christian? Or always?
STEWART: When we meet him, he’s already a reformed person. That wasn’t always the case. That’s the case in the world. Before you’re of God you’re of something else. You’re of the world. He was very much of the world. When we meet him he’s already become of God. He’s a God-fearing person when he comes into this world.
So does the character have rules because of his Christianity, like he can and can’t do certain things?
STEWART: From a moral aspect, he does. But again, if you look at Christian fundamentalists, there were people sent to fight for God, Biblically speaking. I don’t think he sees himself too far from that. He’s a vessel for God, whatever he needs that to be. Whatever’s needed, thats what he’s gonna’ do.
Was it easy [or difficult] to play something like that, a contradiction of someone doing what he truly believes is righteous, but violenty?
STEWART: Is it hard as an actor to do that or wrap my head around it? No, not really. No. Because if that’s what he believes he’s being instructed to do, then I’m doing it full-bore, 100%. Right in the middle of the street. If that’s what he’s being instructed, that’s what’s going to happen.
Is there going to be an episode that fully fleshes out your past?
STEWART: You’re going to see. You’ll see where he comes from. You’re not going to be left guessing, you know what I mean? It’s not like, “Oh, where and how did this happen?” You’ll get the full spectrum of it.
Is he someone who is willing to be a warrior for God and that’s his only role, or do you think he’d ever want to seek out his own flock?
STEWART: I don’t know that there’s any way he can answer that. I don’t think there’s a way that anyone can answer that. I come from that world, my father is a Baptist minister from West Virginia. So that was always something where, what’s fitting for today might not be fitting for tomorrow. What you’re being asked to do today might not be what you’re asked to do tomorrow. I don’t know, at least the way I’ve approached this person, playing Pilgrim, there’s no sort of “This is what I’m supposed to do, 100%, and that’s the way it’s going to be.” Tomorrow, you could be asked to lead the choir.
So he’s someone that’s always waiting for a message?
STEWART: I think, again, coming from that world, in prayer that’s always what you’re looking for. Whether that’s helping someone get some food that’s on the street or something greater that’s going to take years to find or answer, you just have to be open to it.
You mention your father was a minister, and obviously Steve and the writers put a lot fo what’s in these characters on the page, but did you bring that experience to this when you were wrapping your head around who Pilgrim is?
STEWART: From an acting standpoint, or a storytelling standpoint, it’s hard not to bring your own way to it. The only thing that separates me from every other actor in town is me. That’s my perspective, that’s my instinct, so to speak. However that is formed, however I’m formed, in any role that’d be a part of it. So sure, my experience definitely informed that, and then conversations with Steve, the guy just came out of that. It wasn’t one of those things where I had to go searching or, in a lot of ways. Those ideals and those ways in which you’re pursuing a Godly passion, so to speak.
You mentioned operating in this grey area, so what do you think about the character makes the viewer sympathise with him?
STEWART: I’ve played a lot of dudes that maybe aren’t the most wholesome. But before someone is whatever they are, they are a person. That comes from somewhere. Anytime you can explore where that comes from, we can all relate to, “Oh shit, I’m not getting paid this month and I got two kids.” Now what are you going to do? Or this happens or that happens. Anybody that comes from anywhere, we all can be in a desperate place at the drop of a hat. I think, as an actor, once you start exploring that world—and there’s ways to bring that out, whether that’s scripted or not, in the way that you look at a situation around you, the way that you handle a situation. You walk into a set and you see something and you pick it up, you can let people into the side of a character that’s not scripted like “this guy is going to walk in, he’s going to do this, he’s going to do that.” So playing in that world is playing in grey for me. Anytime, playing a good guy or a bad guy, you guys don’t care about the story if you don’t care about the character. I don’t give a shit what anybody tells you. You can make things explode and blow everything up, if you don’t care about the people...I don’t give a shit about the Transformers, man. It’s just a fact. You don’t care about the people, you don’t care about anything. So that’s the way I go about it.
You mentioned that you’ve known Jon for a while, how has that level of comfort peppered your characters’ interactions on screen?
STEWART: Anytime you have someone’s rhythm as a person, it’s so easy to find that rhythm as a performer, as an actor, over the years...look, that’s why you see so many people work together over and over and over again. People who are friends go and work together. They know their rhythms. I can be on top of them as they’re stopping their scripted dialogue just because I know the way they’re tailing off, the way of their inflections, all that sort of thing. Beyond that, acting is looking in someone’s eyeballs and listening to them. When you’ve looked in someone’s eyeballs and talked about real-life stuff, on any level, when you’re looking in their eyeballs and your talking about something scripted it’s not hard to transfer that real-life over.
Would you consider yourself a method actor like Jon?
STEWART: Not really. There are times that you got to get in and stay in it. I’m not one of those dudes who walks home pissing off down the street. To me, that’s too much, man. It’s too much. My life is my life and for my own personal reasons, I don’t want to bastardize that by something that’s going up on a TV screen. Of course, to me that’s what it is, for me personally. As an actor, it’s like whatever you have to do to get there to do it? By all means. Do what you need to do.
Aside from the religion defining the core of the character, is there a certain conversation that area hopes to present?
STEWART: I think, from an acting standpoint...I was just having this conversation with a friend of mine who is just starting as an actor. He was getting so bent out of shape about what people had to say about the character in the story...the only thing I can control is between action and cut. That goes off to some editor, and they’re going to start sculpting it into something different completely. Maybe it’s the same, maybe it’s not. Then you’re going to see it, and you’re going to take something completely different from it. It may not be anything remotely close to what I was feeling thematically or whatever it was that was going on with me when I was doing it. It’s out of my control at that point. Once I’ve done it, I’ve turned it loose, then it’s up to everyone else to look at it and decide what they think it is. And you can’t be mad at it, or happy for it, it’s just “Well, there it is.”
Well what did you take away from it?
STEWART: I can’t tell you that. I don’t mean that in...it’s like, what’s happening inside when it’s coming together is what it is. The only thing I can try and do is service the author’s words inside the vision of the director. And I’ve got to turn it loose after that. Because if I then try and explain to you what I hope people are going to take from it or what they want, then I’m setting myself up to be dissapointed if that’s not the case. I know people are gonna’ love it, I know people are gonna’ hate it, I know people are going to feel everything in control. It’s out of my control. The sooner you can let go of that and stop banging myself up about that, the easier it is. And if you do bang yourself up about that then go be a musician and write songs. Do something else. No matter what character...I’ve played killers before. I went, “This is the best dude ever he’s just misunderstood.” You’ve got to let that stuff go. It doesn’t matter what it is. I don’t mean that in a bad, flippant way. It’s like, what an audience is going to take from it, they’re going to take from it, and there’s nothing I can do about it. I keep that for me and it’s the only thing that’s left for me.
How terrifying is Jon in that costume and that vest?
STEWART: Listen, Jon is like his pups, man. He’s just this sweetheart dude to me. Yeah, if I didn’t know Jonny he’s not a guy you’d want to tangle with in an alleyway, I can tell you that much. If I saw him running at me I’d probably be looking around for something to climb on. Yeah, completely. Jon is a jacked, intense dude.
How much creative freedom are you given to improvise?
STEWART: We stick to it, man. The way I was trained as an actor is like I’m here to service the author's work within the vision of the director. I was trained with a theater background, if you’re doing Shakespeare you can’t change Shakespeare’s words. You can’t change Tennessee Williams’ words, or Eugene O’Neil’s words. Whoever the hell. We’re given the opportunity and the ability to have conversations with Steve and whoever the writer is once we’re given the script. We read something and we’re not feeling it, we’re trying to understand it, we can find that common ground for sure. Once it’s on the page, that’s pretty much what it is. It’s something completely different, too, when you have this whole set of source material from the comics. It’s almost the same as if you’re doing a completely fact-driven peace. The world is already out there, you don’t really have the freedom to change it however you want. Kennedy got shot, man. He’s not alive. So, from that aspect, they’ve got this material that they want to preserve. So that’s what we try and do.
Did this role inspire you to check out the comics? How familiar were you with the source material?
STEWART: I grew up in West Virginia. You ever seen A River Runs Through it? That’s the way I grew up. Fly-fishing, running the mountainside. I had heard of comics. I didn’t see one until I was in New York City in 2000. I’m not even shitting you. Any comic whatsoever. It was just never a world that I had any sort of knowledge about. My movie world was John Wayne and Clint Eastwood. That was it. Or A Streetcar Named Desire. Anything on Turner Classic Movies on a Sunday afternoon. So no, I had no idea about anything. I still don’t, still have no idea.
For more on The Punisher Season 2, peruse links to the rest of our set visit coverage below: