Michael Bay Will Bet You $25,000 That the Twins Aren’t in TRANSFORMERS: DARK OF THE MOON

by     Posted 3 years, 159 days ago

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A little over a year ago, we reported that “The Twins” Skids and Mudflap, the horrible racist caricatures from Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen, wouldn’t be shucking and jiving their way through Transformers 3.  There was much rejoicing.  However, an early review (which has since been edited) claimed that the Twins had found their way into the upcoming sequel.  Bay has now roundly rebuked that claim on his website [via TFormers.com] by stating:

After the internet posting of a nice review by someone who saw Transformers: Dark of the Moon, the writer had not been clear on one thing. He misstated that the Twins are in the film. They are not.  So I am offering a $25,000 REWARD to anyone who can find them performing in Transformers 3, on July 1, when the movie opens.

And what about their presence in the trailer?  “Trailer houses sometimes use shots that are not in the movie! End [of] story[.] I’m don’t [sic] wasting my time [on] this!”  Bay doesn’t say how you can claim your twenty five grand if you spot the Twins, but I’m willing to take him at his word.

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  • Mark Tornits

    A. the early review says that they are NOT in it-

    B. what makes them racist??? people throw that term around so much and don’t know when it is really applicable-

    c. yes, they were annoying but racist??? If they talked like white people then i guess that would also be racist since they are talking like white people and pandering to that audience??? no?

    d. racism = hatred or intolerance of another race- how do the twins embody that???

    • Michael

      Not that your post deserves any sort of rational response, but your second and third statements are drenched in ignorance and don’t address the issues and imagery at hand, and your fourth is simplifying a complex issue, making it easier for you to reject. In other words, you’re committing the strawman fallacy.

      • ToneTFfan

        I co-sign Michael! Well put! Thank God someone gets it!

      • Brandon

        actually you’re the one not making any sense

      • Noah

        Yes, exactly. Modern racism has little to do with blatant hatred and almost everything to do with the hegemonic normalization of whiteness. Then again, this is the internet, so I’m not really sure what I was expecting.

      • T. Van

        @ Michael
        Just wait one minute there, buddy. You haven’t given Mark a chance to tell us that racial parodies, caricatures and Tuckerizations don’t exist. Wait… what?

      • Nate

        Yes because hood ass robots that do nothing but fuck around and dont even know how to read their own language isn’t racist

      • Andy

        Or how about…

        It’s a stupid movie about one toy beating up another toy and you finding racism anywhere in a movie like this is ignorant on your part. In fact, anyone who finds racism in any movie like this is not just ignorant…but an all around waste of earthly space. It’s a movie…grow up losers.

        Besides, everyone’s a little bit racist sometimes…;)

      • John

        Well…they’re robots. The only thing that could possibly make this a race issue is if one or both of them were played by Tyler Perry. Now THERE is a man who gets paid millions and millions of dollars to be racist and stereotypical. Let’s remember…the Twins are computer generated robots.

    • Brandon Avery

      I agree

      • Chad

        There is a difference between racism and accurately depicting a culture. Racism is the belief that a race is superior or inferior. Do these caricatures seem incapable of improvement due to their apparent race? Or do they merely have different values (reading written language not being one of them)? Is race even something to seriously consider when dealing with robotic entities from Cybertron who cannot literally correlate with human ethnicity on Earth?

        Either way, it seems like a good deal of ignorant people throw the term racism around, but have no idea what it means. It’s a word that shouldn’t be watered down with hipster, postmodern definitions. After all, Hitler (if he were alive) and Neo Nazis would applaud the confusion!

    • horstradamus

      Racist? Um… no. Guilty of stereotyping hoodlum street douchbags (both white and black I would remind you), yes probably. That doesn’t make them “racist”, because clearly no race is mentioned in the movie. People who say that are either ignorant or just want attention. Grow up.

  • Josh

    @Mark. I had a big long post I wanted to make, but I can sum it up with “I agree”.

  • Dan

    *facepalm*

    Just see Amos and Andy and then rewatch TF2 and then tell me where the racism is coming from. Granted, one of the twins was played by a black man, but to not see ANY way in which the character could be viewed as racist (by playing up harmful stereotypes and overall “white people perceptions”) is just…well…as downright stupid as the plot to TF2.

    It’s like the cliche joke “every group of friends has that one who’s just stupid…if you can’t point them out, then guess what…you’re it”. If you watch TF2 and can come up with zero reason why someone may be offended by they twins…well, then maybe someone needed to pay more attention in class during February than others did…

    • Michael

      Well said, Dan.

      Mark Tornits is just one of millions of racial apologists, who pretty much automatically deny any or all accusations of racism, conveniently sidestepping any issues raised by resorting to simplistic counters.

      In short, they’re defending the racist status quo.

      He reminds me of those who argue that nothing’s wrong with whitewashing, and also try to claim that whites are actually the ones discriminated against in Hollywood and larger society.

      • Mark Tornits

        I am 100% against racism-

        Hating someone just because of the color of their skin doesn’t even make sense to me-

        and that is basically what racism comes down to-

        Disliking people because of they way they act… Is not racism!!
        Prejudice possibly.

        The poster named ME is from Serbia and gets it- If the twins are racist than every serbian “bad-guy” in a film is cliche and racist-

        If you see someone and just hate due to their background- ok racism-

        This issue is so weird to me that people are so “ignorant” (another incorrectly used term, see michael’s post above) to what racism really is.

      • Dan

        Racism is more than just hating someone for their skin, Mark, it’s about playing up stereotypes and cliches in a harmful manner. Your analogy about Serbians (which, kudos, by the way for finding the one person in the discussion who brought up where he’s from) is correct…on both counts.

        The heavy usage of Russian or other European nations as big, bald, tattooed, bad guys in Hollywood is a form of racism, however, it is also a commentary on the vacuum of crime and genocide that has plagued that area of the world going back to the Soviets, but with a major upswing with the fall of communism. Sure, things are better now than they were in the 90s, but using them as villains isn’t as off the mark since it works as a minor social commentary. Add that to the fact Russia and by proxy Eastern Europe used to be our greatest enemy, it’s a recognizable face of evil everyone can recognize. But, it’s still a form of racism.

        Now, I’m not saying James Bond should apologize for making Russians/Eastern Europeans (I mean, let’s be real, the amount of legitimately pointed out Serbian bad guys is a large minority, they’re mostly Russian in the movies anyway), because there is a REASON behind it (as previously mentioned) and it is done tastefully (to a point).

        To boil down racism to skin color truly proves nobody ever learns.

    • Miguel

      The simple truth for Michael Bay and other film makers is don’t have any ethnic or racial groups in your movies unless you the film maker are a member of that ethnic group. Because at the end of the day if Michael Bay was black, black people would not be upset about the movie. The fact that Bay is white has everything to do with why others are upset.

      On another subject, Italians aren’t all upset when Gangster movies come out and have them portrayed as heartless murderers and thieves and the woman as stupid, weak and reliant. So my thought is that if you are black and offended by the twin robots, you are probably ignorant, probably could not regognize a picture of Fredrick Douglas if it were shown to you, and probably do act just like the robots in the movie on the reg.

      One final word, If an artist spends their own time to create a painting, or a song or a movie, put what ever you want in the damn thing. This is artistic freedom at its finest.

      If you get offended by stererotypes it basically means you believe in the stereotype or you are the stererotype. Have I met black people like the twin robots? Yes I have. I have also met very well educated and well spoken and interesting black people as well. I don’t talk slower to them and draw pictures when I speak to them. BECAUSE STEREOTYPES ARE NOT REALITY AND IF YOU TREAT THEM AS SUCH YOUR JUST KIND OF A SILLY HEAD.

  • dc420911

    these damn robots dont even have skin, i’ve met tons of hispanic, white, and asian people that act and speak like the twins. the only thing that is racist, is the person who sees the movie and says hey those robots are acting like black people, because they are the ones applying the stereotypes. so if you think the only people who speak and act like the twins are black maybe you should take a look at the way you think. And michael bay specifically said he’d give the cash to anyone who could spot them performing. they could be dead in the background not doing a thing. wouldnt that count as not performing?

    • Brandon Avery

      I agree 100%

    • T. Van

      Wow. You think it’s okay to say that there are Blacks who act like the twins, but that it’s *not* okay to say the the twins were meant to act like Blacks. That makes a great deal of sense. Or something.

      • ubcool

        It is quite obvious what he is saying. yes it is okay to say there are blacks that act like the twins because there probably are, just like there are probably white people, Asians, Hispanics , who act like them too. what is not okay, is to say that the robots are meant to be black because you are implying that only black people act this way so they must be black. this is not true and is also how racists think.

      • T. Van

        @Uncool

        Ah, but here’s where you give yourself far too much credit for “thinking.” If either you or DC had the ability to correctly represent what others have been writing, we could actually get somewhere.

        Alas, you cannot, and banter with you is akin to arguing with a 5-year old who wants some ice cream. Anyone who doesn’t cave into your irrational wants must be evil in some manner. Please… go read some books, so that you can actually contribute to an online discussion. Next thing we know, you’re going to start claiming that people who listen to rap, Jazz, and easy rock music are all in 3 distinct social groups.

      • ubcool

        ‘Ah, but here’s where you give yourself far too much credit for “thinking.” If either you or DC had the ability to correctly represent what others have been writing, we could actually get somewhere.’

        this is classic, almost everyone of your posts has been a ridiculous,overwrought, irrelevant argument based on an intentional misinterpretation of what someone has just said. no one is getting anywhere with you, as you are either an ignorant idiot or a troll, and is why nobody else can be bothered to reply to you.

        and the only person who needs to read some books here is you as I am getting tired of having to explain to you the difference between race and culture. as well as at the same time having to explain others peoples posts.

      • T. Van

        @ Uncool

        LOL. It took you more than a week to come up with this?

        Just so you know, “gansta” is not a culture, despite protests to the contrary. This is one of the many reasons you aren’t in a position to insult anyone’s intelligence (which, in fact, is all you’ve attempted to do in each post on this board)… and also a sign that you need to become more informed before sharing “facts” in public.

        FYI: you’re free to stop directing your infantile responses my way. I truly won’t mind.

  • Lydia Roberts

    It looks like it will be a really intense film and much darker in tone while less camp than the first two films. It’s played a lot more straight but still really epic.

    John Malkovich and Patrick Dempsey seem to have intriguing roles in this that are being kept under wraps.

  • casbot

    When I saw the headline about the “twins” I just thought they were REALLY objectifying Megan Fox.

  • Jeff T.

    The funny thing is that the old-school Transformers fans now regret that the Twins are not in the movie. Seriously, go to their website and you’ll see for yourself.

    These are the same people who couldn’t stop bashing these two characters in 2009. Ahh, irony is a bitch, ain’t it?

    Personally, I liked the Twins and I was hoping to see them in the movie. Oh well, it is what it is. The most important thing is that the movie is almost here.

    Bring in the BAYHEM!

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  • ToneTFfan

    Gold teeth, broken English, and the classic line…”reading…naw we don’t do much reading…” where in the world does that kind of stupidity fit with robots from another planet? The eye candy was the only thing that made TF2 endurable. I grew up a TF fan and I didn’t see anything that made me like or even come close to missing those two horrible attempts at comedic relief twin things. The problem is that too many times people are blind to the obvious. It is like Star Wars with the jar jar binks thing? Seriously, why the heck did that thing need to be in a movie like Star Wars? Bottom line: Don’t add idiotic stuff for no reason. It will always make you look that much dumber. (People like the twins…really, seriously?)
    I pray that Bay is sticking to the serious stuff when it comes to TF3 and leave the goofball characters to the worthless spoof movie reels. This is big boy and girl entertainment. Please stop the madness.

  • Me

    I really don’t know why they were called racists?! I found them very amusing. In fact, my favorite scene from TF2 is when they are fighting Devastator. I think that character of Leo was annoying.
    I am from Serbia and I really don’t understand that racist thing. I heard that the Twins are compared to black people and I heard that black people are easily offended. We, Serbs, or Russians are often portrayed as bad guys in the American movies, so what? Are we supposed to be angry? No way! The movies are fiction and it should be fun! Everyone can find a way to hate a successful movie and director who makes a lot of money by making sometimes dumb but fun action movies!
    Speaking about racism, please, read this article, it’s unbelievable!

    http://www.badrecordcovers.com/?p=255

    If this is racism then I’m Don Johnson!

    • Mark Tornits

      thanks for that great article-

      really comments on the way people want to be offended due to their own “ignorance”-

    • Lance

      I understand some Serbians have had problems in the past with understanding the concept of nondiscriminatory behavior. If you don’t understand why the robots could be considered offensive, I suspect you don’t get along with many black people very well.

      • Me

        Actually, I never met one. But I don’t have anything against them! I admire black american basketball players, actors… I’m just saying that Michael Bay haters will find every possible way to bash his movies. What’s the difference between Bernie Mack’s or Antony Anderson’s characters, Jazz and the twins! They were all speaking the same way. Jazz was voiced by black man – Darius McCrary and his line was:”What’s cracking little bitches?” Anyone offended by that? I never heard.

      • Lance

        If you’ve never met a black person I’m going to suggest there are nuances (they’re not really nuances, but to an outsider I suppose they might seem that way) that you’re probably not picking up, lost in the cultural divide.

        But that’s okay. As you can see by these comments, some Americans don’t pick up on them, either. They probably don’t have many black friends (real friends, not just people they see at work) either, though.

  • Brandon Avery

    Matt,

    I completely disagree with you. Please answer this question. At what part in TF2 did the twins state that they were acting or talking like black people? There was none. I know a number of raises that act like this. As Michael Bay stated, he wanted to them to act like wannabe gangsters. The twins did not have Black Skin, say, or pitch anything related to them acting like Black People. So for you and everyone else that makes that claim are the one who are racist by enforcing that stereotype.

  • nawtnt

    If the Twins are in Transformers 3 then they should be in the film for 5 minutes before being smashed into pieces in a battle by a Deception to make the audience if they hate them that much or the Twins can be turn into nicer comic reliefs like Chuck from The Goonies.

  • nawtnt

    If the Twins are in Transformers 3 then they should be in the film for 5 minutes before being smashed into pieces in a battle by a Deception to make the audience happy if they hate them that much or the Twins can be turn into nicer comic reliefs like Chuck from The Goonies.

  • Matt B

    Michael Bay is a pathetic joke. Stop watching his movies, people. Please!!

    • Jeff T.

      Ebert, is that you, old fart? Oh no, it’s just a random moron who doesn’t even know what he’s doing here.

      Know this, dipshit: I will personally watch Transformers 3 at least three times in the theater, and I’ll buy both the DVD and the BluRay. And I’m recruiting other people to do the same.

      Oh, and I’ve already bought ALL Michael Bay films on DVD.

      Sucks to be a sad hater, Matty boy. I actually feel sorry for you. I really do.

      • Mike

        You’ll see TRANSFORMERS 3 three times because you’re a huge fan of Michael Bay.

        That’s all anyone needs to know.

        There’s nothing remotely racist — or even debatable — about this: You have bad taste in movies. You’re a little stupid, too, probably, but there’s no empirical way of proving it. No need, either.

    • Robotron2084PSN

      Good call Matt

  • Matt

    Not to mention Watto in Star Wars I being a sterotypical Italian. Disgrace!

    • Dolemite

      I always thought Watto was supposed to be Jewish.

    • crogelbe

      Italian Watto, the trade federation guys who sounded Asian, and some big alien in a diner who sounded like he was from Queens or Brooklyn or something (never been good at understanding caricatures). . . What the hell were any of these guys doing long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away?

    • crogelbe

      Italian Watto, the trade federation guys who sounded Asian, and some big alien in a diner who sounded like he grew up in Queens or Brooklyn or something (never been good at understanding caricatures). . . What the hell were any of these guys doing long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away?

      • Pete

        Technically, as its a galaxy far far away and a long, long time ago, then italians were influenced by Watto, asians by the Trade Federation and people from Queens by the Diner alien, not the other way around. The Devil is in the details folks, remember that

  • Semantics101

    There are a few people who started this thread that are so entrenched in the semantics and definitions of race that they are completely missing the good coming out of Bay’s decision.

    - Two of the several bad characters from TF2 will not be brought back -

    Any debate on the source of this decision is moot because the people who saw it as racist got their way and the people who thought the charcters sucked got their way too. If your sad that you will not see the twins in the next movie, that doesn’t implicitly mean that you’re racist; it means you’re 5 years old and that any talking robot is cool, regardless of how of what they say.

    • T. Van

      @Semantics

      LOL. That’s the single funniest thing I’ve read all week! Of course, it’s also true.

  • TheSeavage

    Actually I am friends with black kids and my cousin, aunt, is black and they didn’t give two shits about the twins in the flick. Why is it that when white kids act, talk and prance around like they are black, nobody gives a shit but when a couple of robots that arent real and made from a computer do it, its an outrage, when you can see far more stereotypical shit in LOTS of kids movies. People have serious issues in the world. Get off your high horses, its a fucking movie.

    • Jeff T.

      Very well said.

      I agree completely.

  • space cadet

    i dind’t think it was racist i just thought great bay fuCked up again with these characters. It’s just a BAD made movie that everyone is trying to forget, get over it.

  • Curious

    So for all the people who think the twins are racist. Do you also think that Jazz was racist in the first movie? Or was it racist that the little RC truck talked like a mobster? It’s the same thing, it’s a characterization, not making fun of anything or putting anyone down. And the people who got offended by the “we don’t read much” line. No one but Jetfire could read the language. If everyone stopped looking for it, the world would be a much better place.

    • T. Van Dyke

      @Curious

      Yours has to be the worst attempt at a defense that I’ve seen in quite some time. Your argument is akin to professing someone’s innoncence by saying, “why didn’t you accuse my friend of murder the *first* time you found a dead body on his living room floor? Aha! You didn’t. Therefore, he must be innocent this time around.”

      For the record, I’m a fan of Bay’s movies and was thoroughly impressed with part I of Transformers. I, however, am capable of acknowledging when a pair of characters are offensive.

      Illiterate astronauts referencing “bustin’ caps” while having gold caps on their teeth? Sheesh.

      • horstradamus

        Sorry, but you’re being ridiculous. Having gold teeth and “busting caps” does not mean you’re emulating a black person. It means you’re emulating an idiot. If you personally associate those things with black people, that makes YOU racist; not Michael Bay. The truth hurts doesn’t it?

      • T. Van

        @ Horse

        Seriously, how do you get any of this from these two posts? Your “stream of thought” post doesn’t even match-up with this exchange.

        The truth may hurt, but your incoherence is fatal.

    • Occasional Superstar

      Yes Jazz was a character based on a black stereotype with the line “What’s up bitches?” It wasn’t as blatant as the twins Skids and Mudflap which by the way is a not-so-subtle underhanded reference to black skin. He gives more hints by them being illiterate and fighting each other like baffoons the entire movie.

      If you knew your history, you would know that these are minstrel themes which date back to the late 1800s and most notably in blackface movies in the 1930s. So yes, they are racist. Some more subtle than others…Jazz was subtle but racist still and the twins less subtle and racist.

      If you think this is spot on with black people then well you should read about history and maybe talk to some black people…

  • Lance

    The people who got why those two robots were juvenile and yeah, pretty much based on racial stereotypes are right on. But they’re gone now, so the clueless can rant as much as they want. Either Bay caved for no good reason, or he realized he’d made a mistake in Transformers 2.

    And why anyone would want to defend Transformers 2 as a masterpiece of filmmaking is beyond me. They’re right up there with those “Garfield” movies.

  • erik

    should have got spike lees opinion on this subject he pretty bi est, lmaoooooooooooooooooo :)

  • Vince

    Micheal Bay is a modern day Ed Wood. One of the all time worst directors in history. He has always had a weird idea of what’s funny. The “Twins” was nothing new. His movies are always littered with bizarre “humor” at the wrong times. Look at Pear Harbor. Right before the Arizona is destroyed, he shows a Black cook staring at the bomb that lands in front of him before it explodes. Only a moron like Bay would think that’s a good time for a humorous moment. Right before an explosion that killed 800 young Americans in one of the worst moments in our history. The man is a joke.

    • Jeff T.

      LOL! You are one funny guy, Vince.

      And I wonder who’s the joke here: a moron like you, who’s spreading childish hate or a man who’s making successful movie after successful movie?

      The great thing is that no matter how much you whine, you can’t change anything. At all. Transformers 3 will be one of the biggest movies of the year and Bay will keep making movies for years and years to come. The guy is so successful that he do anything he wants. Remember that!

      Come to think of it, it really sucks to be a small and insignificant hater like you. You poor, poor soul…..

    • Frank F

      I don’t know which is worse: Michael Bay haters, or his nut-huggers?

      • Easy

        Agreed, Frank.

        The man is a joke. Remember that!

  • Jeannie

    For the love of love this is just a movie and I’m a transformer fan for life from back in the day until now 2011 bring mud flap and skids back people need to laugh no matter what people think about each other when that ark dock Noah and his family got off but before that Adam and Eve was all of our parents the living and dead even if they did disobey JEHOVAH GOD we all are his children so if you want to do any thing about it you HAVE A CHOICE serve SATAN OR GOD so all you real AUTOBOLTS ROLL OUT.

    yes I use

  • Moncellus

    Ok, to begin with “who the fuck cares, if the twins were racist? They were good comedic relief in an otherwise lame movie! Now, im not a racist person but i’ve seen far worse in other big budgeted movies that never gets bitched about!

    To blame Bay for racism is stupid and just hates him b/c obviously you forget that Bays career started with two high profile “black” actors in a movie that got a bigger following by “blacks” than “whites”… If you dont know by now im talking about “Bad Boys”!

    Now, on to another subject!

    For all the claims of racism here, who’s arguing the point the “whites or the blacks”…

    The worst thing a black person can be called is a “nigger”! Yet, everyone can run around calling each other a “nigga” and its ok… Seriously, ill believe in racism when not everyone runs around using a slang of the most common and harshest of all racist terms in everyday convos!

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  • Robotron2084PSN

    God how i hated them colored robots.

  • SPS

    The review said that they were toned down! That should have made all you haters happy! Yes, it did have flaws, but the second film was still entertaining. However, Bay immediately releasing a statement after receiving a positive review, for the first time, I’m actually suspicious about this and I think that the twins might be in the film after all, acting the same, making you haters cringe and sweep the Razzies, bringing an untimely end to a successful franchise.

  • Cy

    I think it’s telling when the arguments against the “Bay is racist” side boil down to ad hominems and ad bacs (in logic talk for “you suck” or “you suck i’ll kick your ass for saying that”) but guys let’s be real about something:

    No one saw the twins and thought “who were those eskimo cars…?” EVERYONE thought they were representing black people. If you thought they were charactitures (sorry my spelling blows) of Persians you’re dumb.

    That being said there are portrayals of black characters that aren’t racist. This one portrayed them as dumb buffons.

    So when you have a racial charactature (again spelling) that is depicting stereotypes of a race, and has them as bumbling idiots yeah people are gonna call racist.

    Cuz let’s face it, it’s kinda hurtful. Now not everyone will be hurt by it. Saying “i know this black guy and he didn’t hate it” doesn’t change the fact that it’s friggin mean and racist. So some people thought the twins were funny. Who cares, doesn’t change the fact you have a portrayal of stereotypical “blacks” as jackasses.

    And if you really think about it, if you as a white dude, or a mexican guy started acting like that it won’t be long until someone comes around and says “stop acting like a black guy with brain damage.”

    So stop saying Bay is awesome for doing that. His idea of comedy is pants around the ankles slapstick bathroom humor and aren’t other races besides white people strange and funny?! If you like that have a blast. Enjoy your lack of diversity in your life, the world has a lot to offer in terms of other cultures and perspectives and if you’re too good for that your loss.

    • crogelbe

      I just looked up caricature because I couldn’t spell it either.

  • KorbenDallas

    If you act like trash then you’re trash; respect is given when you are respectable. This holds true cross gender, race, and culture. Although racism at the core includes stereotyping, stereotyping itself isn’t racism. Know and understand all of this, it is profound.

    • Cy

      Dallas you’re not being clear. Who is acting like trash according to what you are saying? I don’t think you are talking about all mankind, that’s like saying if you’re tall you’re tall…which doesn’t help much. It sounds like you are saying if someone acts like trash or if some group acts like trash then they should be called trash, which brings me back to my first question: who PRECISELY are you talking about? Only one person or possibly a group… if you say a racial group can be “trashy” that sounds like racial stereotypes are ok….which is messed up dude.

      I agree that stereotyping (quickly making generalizations about a group of people usually involving a simple characteristic – I.E. Most of us Persians have a black leather jacket and wear cologne or know someone who does) is bad and racism (involves the existence of a race and inherent in those groups existing in nature there are traits naturally associated with them) is dumb…

      The thing that smacks racism here is that he made a freakin ROBOT act like a race. As in even if you are designing a synthetic black guy he has to act dumb hate education have gold teeth and follow all the stereotypes. It wouldn’t have been so bad if he had robots resemble black people that didn’t talk like a moron, (A barak-bot or a colin powell-bot) but his few “black robots” (there are at least 3 I can think of) that he had he CONSISTENTLY made them exhibit ONLY these awful stereotypes. It’s as if if you have a robot and he’s gonna be the “black” robot he has to be that kind of black robot.

      That’s what is pissing people off. Maybe if he didn’t call Iranian scientists stupid, or maybe if he didn’t have his characters accost their peers when heaven forbid another language is spoken we may give Bay the benefit of the doubt. But alas, we have to have a robot say “little bitches” and we MUST have all the other robots an act that way.

      • KorbenDallas

        When I said “you” it is singular. If someONE acts like trash then that single person is trash. By act I mean ACTIONS, meaning being a negative influence to society like blatantly breaking laws, property defamation, etc. Also notice actions is plural, so if a single act is done it doesn’t automatically mean that person is trash. Trash happens no matter if you’re male/female, black/white/yellow/green, LGBT, etc.

        You keep reverting back to “groups”. I’ve never seen an entire group of people act like trash. It’s always a smaller group, mostly a few individuals, that create cynicism against the whole. (I don’t want to discuss people born into unfortunate circumstances, that’s a different topic.)

        As far as TF2, it was a couple of robots who weren’t the sharpest knives in the drawer. If memory serves they learned and matured toward the end. It was a (bad) movie about robots so I didn’t read into it too much.

  • James S.

    Keeping the robots out of the movie because they are black is blatant racism, and the NAACR needs to be notified immediately. Reverend Al Sparkplug to the rescue.

  • Me

    Why is everyone so harsh at Bay? He is not a writer! He was never credited as a writer. He is one of those directors who gets the script from the studio and they are like:”Here you go, make us money!” Blame Orci, Kurtzman and Kruger for writing a bad script! In fact, it’s not their fault either. Blame the writers strike and blame the studio for rushing the production. The most important thing for studio is money and nothing else. They don’t care about making a good movie, they care only about making money. Bay agreed to go into production because he promised jobs to 600 people. His haters can say:”Yeah right, you like his movies so you are defending him!” But guy is giving donations, helped people of Haiti, offered money to anyone who can give an information about the girl who throw puppies into the water…
    And one more thing about his movies! Critics and audience are bashing his movies and yet, his movies are earning a lot of money. That means something. And TF2 was one of the most successful movies of 2009 (financially), it was the best selling DVD and Blu-Ray of the year. It was also a movie with a lot of problems but to me, it was a lot of fun. Personally I have high hopes for TF3, and I know I will be attacked by adding this, but I would like to see twins again, they were fun. I wouldn’t like to see Leo!

  • Tj

    I didn’t like the twins because they took up space that could have been devoted to others more worthy, and I found them annoying. I don’t like anyone who talks like that or acts like a “gangsta”. The “jokes” were not funny but demeaning, such as “is he your boyfriend” or whatever it was, trying to insult the character by implying he was either a girl or gay.
    The Transformers scan and process information from around them and through the Internet. It could simply be that these two scanned any number of males who think they’re awesome and tough by being “gangsta” and since the twins themselves are just like those males, they figured they’d scan them and act/ talk that way, or it was an equivalent to whatever equivalent was on Cybertron. It’s not right to dismiss something having the potential to be racist but it’s also not right to assume EVERYONE thought they were racist. There’s projection; my brother thought they were Hill Billy’s as did my niece. I admit I thought they were supposed to be “Black” due to the features and mannerisms, and voices, but that was me due to what I’ve experienced, however it to be stereotypical , I didn’t think “racist.” After all, Jazz “is” Black, and Black actors worked on the films, so I didn’t read too much into it but did want to see how many other people thought as I did. If every Black character, including Jazz in the movies were depicted that way, then maybe. In any case, it’s all about intent. If it can be proven it was meant as a *racist* stereotype, then by all means, be indignant, but there hasn’t been. I admit, if it depicted a stereotype of something I could relate to, and without any other portrayal to distance it, then maybe I’d be more angry, but I get so tired of other fans who mainly use this as an excuse to hate on something. I liked Jar Jar; he was voiced by a Black man, and was meant to sound to stupider than most of his kind, but he wasn’t racist or the voice actor would not have done it. He’s no more ridiculous than Ewoks or other races/ creatures. Wotto is said to be Jewish and thus Lucas is racist despite him being Jewish. If anything, Bay should be criticized for sexing up the women in his movies, strong characters or not. Where’s the same treatment for the male characters. I do think that perhaps the Twins were stereotypes of Blacks but I don’t necessarily think they were intended to be racist. I also think that blame should also rest on Hasbro for approving everything. They decided these characters were worthy of screen time and money in their pockets. Hasbro decided to approve of marketing of a movie with jokes about a robot’s balls and a Pretender who will seduce her prey before killing them to children far more than adults. People bash Bay but leave them out. They’ve authorized “Sassy” or “Sexy” Optimus and Bumblebee costumes for women. A short skirt and lots of cleavage and somewhat of a design of Optimus and Bee on them. They authorized the G.I.Joe movie with elements that some fans despise. They have great stuff but also aren’t innocent either. Bay has faults but he has good points also. However, if you hate on him, don’t forget Hasbro or the countless others involved, such as the designers, the writers, the CGI artists, the voice actors and so forth. I don’t like the Twins and not trying to totally defend them but I just wish people would look a little deeper at times.

  • Mehoff

    Well of course these robots are racist.

    The defenders seem to forget one thing: every other robot in the movie is pretty much raceless with the exception of the “black” robots. If there were Hispanic, Caucasian and Asiatic robots running around living out stereotypes deemed humorous by the shit writing team behind this movie, you might have a point.

    But, no. Just the bumbling clowns.

    Oh and for the record, “serbian” is not a race. Which is why when people of specific nationalities are portrayed a certain way, it cannot be by definition, racist. There can be white Serbians andblack serbians. Use a little logic, just occassionally.

    And to the people who defend the underlying quality of this turd: Just because you have an opinion doesn’t mean it’s valid. When did Americans get that train of thought running through their heads? It could be your “opinion” that Nazis are great, and Hitler will one day rise from the dead, but the fact that it’s an opinion doesn’t make the thought more valid or less shitty.

  • Callum

    Why has this become such a big discussion, it all narrows down to the fact that Michael Bay is an awful director and his films are typical American hollywood trash. Simple.

    • crogelbe

      Careful. You risk calling down the wrath of Jeff T

  • Garren

    The people crying foul about the robots acting like black people are the ones keeping the stereotypes alive. They are the ones who are racist. The robots don’t have a skin color yet somehow these people still relate ignorance, gold teeth, slang words, and the inability to read as something that only pertains to black people. Stop propagating these stereotypes and they will go away. Basically, quit pointing out your own racism by relating certain thing to certain types of people.

    • T. Van Dyke

      This is completely irrational. Mr. Bay and these characters aside, by your line of thinking, someone who is racist cannot be recognized as such… yet a person expressing an observation of racist behavior can safely be labeled racist.

      Such thinking only works if you’re trying to convince people that you’re crazy. Are we now to say that we should arrest good Samaritans who observe thieves snatching purses? Should every district attorney bringing a charge to trial be personally labeled as guilty of that charge?

      For what it’s worth, it would be less offensive for you to say that you either liked the characters or you’re uncomfortable when people bring up the issues of stereotypes or racism. However, when you essentially slam people for calling the sky blue, you truly aren’t helping anything.

      • ubcool

        yes but the sky isn’t always blue is it Dyke.

      • T. Van

        Wow. You’ve had 2 solid weeks to produce a witty comment, and you *still* forgot to properly punctuate your sentence.

        Please… I can take no more of your intellectual “assault.” Have mercy upon me. LOL

      • 1983

        @T. Van

        Just so you know, when you don’t have a valid response to an argument, using big words doesn’t disguise that you still, in fact, have no valid response. Also, stop using quotes. You sound like a douchebag.

      • T. Van

        @ 1983

        I’s too bad you’ve yet to realize that there isn’t much in Uncool’s “delayed-reaction” comment to respond to. After all, offhand contrarian comments related to well-known idioms and metaphors aren’t valid arguments. The fact that you think otherwise speaks volumes about you as an individual. How about you actually make a point about the topic before adding your “two cents worth?”

        Beyond that, if you’ve actually read the comments in this discussion and think that *I’m* the one acting badly (as implied by your post), you’re probably in need of counseling.

        P.S. While I appreciate your “left-handed” compliment on my vocabulary— it may help you to know that people who do a fair amount of age-appropriate reading are not normally phased by such things.

        “”
        “”
        “”

      • ubcool

        I think the only stereotype here is you dyke.
        not that your painfully (once again misinterpreted)ridiculous analogy deserved a reply but if you really cannot relate my simple comment to it, then you really are in a world of your own.

        and no he is not the only one that thinks you are behaving badly, i think almost everyone you have argued with would say the same.

        ‘racist’, ‘troll’ ‘smug, condescending twat’ just a few words people have been describing you with, I could go on but there really is no point, just as there is no point in replying to anymore of your posts. its a shame what this thread has turned into but then again this is what non issue discussions bring.

      • ubcool

        oh sorry for the delay dyke, but non issue debates with trolls arn’t that high on priority list right now,

        anyway not that your ridiculous and stupid analogy deserved a reply (once again based off an misinterpretation) and an intentional one no doubt),but if you can’t relate my simple comment to it then you really are in a world of your own.

        And no he is not the only one who is less than impressed with you; ‘racist’, ‘troll’ ‘condescending smug’ just a view words people have chosen to describe you and your posts.

        anyway all this has really gotten boring, like the rest of the people who have argued with you i will let you have the last word as I have already wasted enough of my time with you.

      • T. Van

        @ Uncool

        1). As the idiom “the sky is blue” only applies to a mutual and simultaneously observed phenomenon, stating that it wasn’t blue at another point in time has no relevance to the observation at hand. It would be valid if the statement was “the sky is always blue,” which it clearly is not. The fact that you and your “friend” 1983 don’t understand this offers further evidence of your immature thinking.

        2) When you align yourself with people who do nothing more than call names, you reveal that you’re quite young and immature.

        3) As you continue to attack me in a discussion where others have posted racial insults, a reference to Hitler, a racial slur and numerous statements that the twins are appropriate representations of African Americans, it’s clear that you’ve no credibility in this discussion. You are either a coward, in denial or in agreement with those parties. With that…

        4) … you said that you would go away. As your presence caused this dialog to digress into playground banter, please do so.

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  • Matt W

    I thought this would be a good time to quote Up in the Air:

    “I’m like my mother, I stereotype. It’s faster.”

    So when does this convo turn around and people start calling racism for NOT including the twins in the film? I mean after all, people saying they were racist just killed off two “black” characters in a movie. Doesn’t that look worse in the end?

    Back when the Bears and Colts were in the Superbowl there was a huge thing about two black coaches, coaching in the SB for the first time, and I don’t remember if it was Dungy or Smith who said something along the lines of, why are people pointing that out? All it does is make people think of racism. I could be far off on that but it was along those lines.

    I honestly hadn’t even thought, “ooo two black coaches for the first time ever?!” I was thinking, “Damnit the Colts are a freakin well coached team and the bears have an awesome D.”

    Lastly, I think as a civilization, we should let the people who get offended speak for themselves. I’m sorry but a white person has no right to call racism when it involves another race. I’m not saying people can’t acknowledge it, but let the people who are offended fight their battles. I’m Polish and I don’t go around calling people racist because they tell a Polish joke. if I was offended I would be the oen to take care of it, not someone who isn’t Polish and really has no bearing or mindset on how it affects me.

  • Jaime Court

    You can say whatever you want, they are not in this movie. It is over. That freedom of expression is a bitch. watta fuk, niggas?

  • spongefist

    This goes out to all the politically and racially correct dumb motherfuckers who have posted their liberal dribble attempting to put forward the arguement that those to two annoying twats in T2 were part of a racist agenda or supported racist sterotypes.

    Wake up you stupid, blind and utterly ridiculous fuckwits.

    Racist my arse, they were simply an accurate depiction of the low level intelligence and over all comedic (in a not actually funny but amusingly bad way)) street values and attitudes that so many of the black american youths have associated themselves with.

    Everyone of any intelligence knows that the values, dribble-talk and overall clueless attitudes and false, misplaced bravado are very much a reality that these people have chosen to engage in. Just because the reality that these idiots have chosen to engage in is so utterly ridiculous to any self respecting human being does not mean that when they are accurately depicted on the big screen it is racist. It is simply an accurate isomorphic transition of a real life character type. Just as if I portrayed a stuffy, pompus English man in type, would not mean I am racist against the brits it is simply a reality that these people exist and I would be portraying that reality.

    It is in fact you, you liberal wankers who are being racist by forgetting that these monkeys have chosen to act and behave in this manner. By you claiming that is it in someway a slur on black American youth is basically saying that what they have chosen to be should not be portrayed accurately because it is racist to do so…

    You simply make no sense, now fuck off…

  • Ryan

    Wow there is some serious lack of logic in this room.

    Bay makes 2 robots that act like street thugs

    People complain that its racist and that he is trying to make the robots act like worthless “black” people

    There are so many things wrong with this….

    1. By saying that illiteracy, gold teeth and rash behavior only represents “black” people than you are a racist
    2. You then take your first logical failure and say “the robots acted black, therefore they are racist”.
    3. But hey I guess Bay should just make really intelligent homogenous robots, then you liberals will be happy. You just don’t want these intelligent blacks on the supreme court

  • Ryan

    Wow there is some serious lack of logic in this room.

    Bay makes 2 robots that act like street thugs

    People complain that its racist and that he is trying to make the robots act like worthless “black” people

    There are so many things wrong with this….

    1. By saying that illiteracy, gold teeth and rash behavior only represents “black” people than you are a racist
    2. You then take your first logical failure and say “the robots acted black, therefore they are racist”.
    3. But hey I guess Bay should just make really intelligent homogenous robots, then you liberals will be happy. You just don’t want these intelligent blacks on the supreme court

    • T. Van Dyke

      @ Ryan

      Beyond the fact that you clearly don’t understand the arguments that have been presented in this discussion, please be advised that your assumption that the twins acted like “street thugs” runs counter to reality. by definition, street thugs are not heroes, they are villains. Ergo, had Mr. Bay wanted to characters to act like street thugs, they would’ve been villains.

  • hi

    25, 000 ? Why that number? Is he afraid? Why not a billion if they are not in it?

  • CJ

    I must be in the minority b/c I enjoy TF2; granted it wasn’t the best -it’s was because of the writer’s strike-Michael Bay wrote it so I’ll give him a break. I’m not expecting cinematic greatness from Bay just some fun fight scenes etc.
    I was more geez guy humor offended by the garbage disposal mini robot that had the big wanker then the robot twins. they had big huge ears and buck teeth-stereo typical dorky white boy trying to act street. In my family we call that talking street NOT talking black b/c whites/hispanics/black people/ etc from the inner cities talk like that. My daughter went to a school where he Russian friend and her Egyptian friend developed a street accent after a couple years-pretty funny
    -My daughter’s friend who is black talks like a valley girl.

    They couldn’t read the language because it was the old language you all read latin??? I didn’t think so.

    • T. Van Dyke

      @CJ
      To answer your question, yes… I can read some Latin. However, your question misses the point (and is yet another straw man presented by the apologiests on this board). The twins did not state “we cannot read that particular dialect or language.” Instead, one twin stated, “we don’t really read.” These are two completely different statements, with radicaly different meanings.

      • stevieg

        I love that Dyke misses the whole point of a post, then rants on about a completely irrelevant detail like the latin bit, or the term street thug. and then has the audacity to say they missed the point when it is in fact him.
        The twins were talking and acted street, NOT BLACK. you dumb racist fvck. And the streets i’m from the majority of people are Asians muslims so you might just they are racist towards them. but then again that wouldn’t suit your racist agenda would it. I also take it he hasn’t seen an Ali-g show or movie. look heres your chance to rant about ali-g and completlely ignore the point of my post Dyke.

      • T. Van Dyke

        @Stevieg

        No. I didn’t miss the point. CJ’s post presented another logical fallacy/straw man, misrepresented a line from the movie and used a “rhetorical” question that turned out to have an answer other than what he/she assumed. Please notice how easy it is for some us to make such points without resorting to juvenile name-calling and horrible misuses of the English language.

        At the end of the day, Mr. Bay looks to have made the right decision (e.g. taking the twins from part 3 of the movie series). The characters, unfortunately, continued a long and embarassing trend history in cinema. Two of the film’s writers have already distanced themselves from these characters, so kudos to Mr. Bay for finally doing the same thing.

  • Tarek

    I bet 25.000$ that Transformers 3 will suck just like Transformers 2. ^^

    • Jeff T.

      Yeah, it’ll SUCK the money right out of people’s pockets and it’ll be one of the most successful movies of the year. Just like Transformers 2.

      And despite your idiotic comment, your ass will be there on opening day. Don’t forget to bring your family too. The more people you bring, the more successful the movie will be. Whether you think the movie is crap or not, that doesn’t matter. It’s just your own opinion and no one cares about it.

      • Tarek

        I will disappoint you, and Michael Bay’s fans, but I will not bring my ass for that. ^^

        It is just my opinion of course. Just like it is yours. So no need to be aggressive. ^^

      • Amber

        Thank you for making the most butthurt posts I have seen in a long time. You’re quite entertaining. =)

  • Lord Flashman

    T. Van Dyke, keep up the good work!
    I haven’t had this good a laugh in a long, long time.

    The way you’ve nailed that caricature of a smug, condescending twat is comedy gold. The overwrought, irrelevant counter arguments; the preening self regard; the absolute conviction only you have the erudition to destroy other people’s arguments; “yes…I can read some Latin”. Hahaha, thanks again. I just hope everyone else sees your comic genius!

    “Aliquando et insanire jucundum est” as I’m sure you say!

    • CJ

      Stevieg totally got my point. I’d be more impressed with you and Dyke if you could spell. Put down the latin phrasebook and english dictionary Flashman and get back to your World of Warcraft.

      Aliquando et insanire iucundum est-

      Bonum vinum laetificat cor hominis
      Ahhh the vino!

      • T. Van Dyke

        @ CJ

        Brilliant. Did you not notice the sarcasm used by Flashman? If you’re going to start “e-fragging” those with whom you’ve cast your lot, why not attack the person using racial slurs? Perhaps you could attack those whose comments blatantly maligned African Americans *as a group*? How about the poster who went so far as to invoke Hitler?

        Granted, I don’t expect you to understand the manner in which negatively stereotypical characters can affect real people. That would be inconsistent with your most recent post. Just be mindful of the crowd with which you’ve aligned yourself (Flashman; this goes for you, as well). After all, how would you expect that crowd to treat your daughter’s friend?

  • Stumped

    you still don’t get it do you mr Dyke?
    The point is you ‘Dyke’ see two twin robots acting dumb and street you automatically assume they are meant to be African American. And you have the nerve to call other people racist? You are root of the problem not the film makers.

    • T. Van

      @Stumped

      Ummmmm… nope. Feel free to actually read my posts before jumping on the low-class bandwagon. Doing so might actually help you understand what’s happenning in this dialog… and to better understand Mr. Bay’s decision (e.g. help you “get it”).

      By the way; I’ve yet to refer to anyone in this conversation as “racist,” but *you* just did. Still; don’t let that fact— and your contradiction— get in the way of your senseless tirade.

  • ubcool

    i think it depends how you look at the robots to whether they are racist or not.

    If you look at them at the way that was intended.(wannabe gansta charatcters) 2 unintelligent robots who chose to research learn about human behavior solely from hip-hop and gangsta culture. then they are actually quite funny and harmless.

    however its no surprise they were misinterpreted as you can never quite underestimate the stupidity of a Michael bay movie viewer, even ones who claims they speak latin.

    • T. Van

      @Uncool

      Well, Bay said that the twins were meant for the kids, and your allergy to captalizatization would indeed support that notion.

      Regardless, I leave you this twins-related quote from one of the writers:

      “It’s really hard for us to sit here and try to justify it. I think that would be very foolish, and if someone wants to be offended by it, it’s their right. We were very surprised when we saw it, too, and it’s a choice that was made. If anything, it just shows you that we don’t control every aspect of the movie.”

      For the record, I agree with him. Trying to justify the characters is foolish.

      You, also, are very foolish.

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  • ubcool

    and i’ll leave you with this ,a quote from Actor Reno Wilson, who voices Mudflap and who helped form the character. oh yeah and who also happens to be black.

    Wilson said Wednesday that he never imagined viewers might consider the twins to be racial caricatures. When he took the role, he was told that the alien robots learned about human culture through the Web and that the twins were “wannabe gangster types.”

    “It’s an alien who uploaded information from the Internet and put together the conglomeration and formed this cadence, way of speaking and body language that was accumulated over X amount of years of information and that’s what came out,” the 40-year-old actor said. “If he had uploaded country music, he would have come out like that.”

    It’s not fair to assume the characters are black, he said.

    “It could easily be a Transformer that uploaded Kevin Federline data,” Wilson said. “They were just like posers to me.”

    • T. Van

      {Sigh}

      For reasons you don’t seem to understand, these old quotes actually *support* the idea that the characters were stereotypes. Please… stick to low-brow insults and hitting Bay fans with cheap shots.

      • ubcool

        {sigh} wow Dyke, you really can’t see the forest for the trees can you?

        the reasons why the quotes support the idea that the characters were stereotypes, was because they were stereotypes you idiot! but a stereotype of a Cultural\social group, NOT RACE. and it sounds like from all the controversy caused by these characters (no surprise only in America) that maybe some people on here should go study the difference.

      • T. Van

        @Uncool

        I can see the forrest, the trees and also my “shift” key (which is more than I can say for your capitalization-averse post).

        Just keep in mind that your overarching claim is absurd. You have claimed a Black actor— portrayed a robot— that was imitating a raceless character— that was imitating a Black character. Beyond the fact that this claim sounds ridiculous, were it true, the twin characters would have more layers than *anything* else in the movie.

        What makes this funny is that 2 of the 3 people who actually wrote the characters “the way they were intended” (e.g. well in advance of any voice actors being cast) have already acknowledged that they were understandably offensive… yet you *still* persist. I suppose your argument won’t be inhibited by the laws of temporal mechanics, though, huh?

        Since I’ve already studied the different between variables such as race, culture, class, and other categories, let’s cut to the chase here. Just be honest and admit that you’re uncomfortable with anyone *claiming* that African Americans have been stereotyped— regardless of whether or not it’s true. Every one of your posts has been consistent with this notion, so just write it and get it over with.

      • ubcool

        ‘that was imitating a Black character’ there you go again and we were so close. but clearly don’t understand the difference between race and culture.

        let me try and put it this way, so if the robots were stupid, had bleached blonde hair, wore board shorts and spoke ‘dude, brah, awesome’. if i applied your same ignorance and logic then that would be a white stereotype and racist aswell.

        but its not, because just like the twin robot’s hip hop/gangsta caricature, it is a cultural stereotype and not a racial one. because like surfers, like hip/gansta , goths ects they have no racial boundaries.

        but don’t worry your not alone there is another group of people who don’t see the difference also, they’re are called racists.

      • T. Van

        The twins represented stereotypes that pre-dated any twisted version of “gangsta” subculture you’re trying to use as cop-out. Once more, however, temporal mechanics are not on the side of your argument.

        Just as an FYI; the main reason your arguments keep destroying themselves is your lack of consistency. Had you previously criticized the anti-Black posters who’ve used this board to claim the characters were actual portrayels of African Americans, you might have at least a shred of credibility. But, instead, you’ve revealed yourself.

        Again; why not admit that you’re uncomfortable with claims of Blacks being

        stereotyped. It would step #1 in your recovery.

  • Alex

    Here’s my question: how do robots portray race? They’re machines and have no ethnic backgrounds. In fact, to automatically assume that the way they are behaving is a degrading portrayal of blacks is a racism assumption itself because THEY’RE NOT HUMAN. Hypocritical.

    • T. Van Dyke

      @Alex

      As not all robot characters are imitations of humans, they imitate various *groups* of people by the same means certain robot characters become representations of humans as a whole (and move closer to being androids). This is done via selective cues and traits that humanize them.

  • anoriginalid

    I come from a country with no black people. I thought the two little robots were supposed to act like EMINEM or some other dum asss from that musical “genre”. So because I didn’t realise the robots were supposed to be black (and an insult to black people), that makes me racist too?

    • T. Van

      There are many things that aren’t fully undrestood until they’re viewed through a particular cultural lense so, no, you weren’t necessarily “supposed” to recognize what was happening with those characters.

      However, out of curiousity, what country are you from… and what do you mean by “some other dummy” in that genre?

  • ammonsad

    Try and pin Hollywood’s portrayal of a pothead to a race, or a geek. Impossible because everyone acknowledges all forms exist. So why stop there? Subjection to environment knows no racial boundary, and gangster ism lives in all races. Simply a choice in lifestyle. The production company doesn’t release a statement stating those characters are based on a specific race, it is up to us to interpret it; therefore we add to the spread of racism by acknowledging such immature interpretations. What next, no reruns of Erkel due to racial implications?

    • T. Van Dyke

      Are you operating under the assumption that Hollywood does— and always has— portrayed criminals, drug addict, and even various body types equitably across all racial and cultural categories? Or, perhaps, are you implying that Hollywood has done so at a ratio which is consistent with their actual presence in either the US or the world at large?

  • ammonsad

    Try and pin Hollywood’s portrayal of a pothead, or a geek to a race. Impossible, because we all understand all forms exist. Subjection to environment knows no racial boundaries. Gangster ism lives in all races, and is what some would identify as a lifestyle choice. We are not given a statement telling us what race to identify robots with. It’s up to us to interpret, and if we ever want to break free of racism, we have to open our awareness. Acknowledging such immature interpretations is detrimental to the very thing you are taking a stand for. Oh great, cancellation of Erkel reruns due to racial implications. Doh.

  • Steve

    Question 1: In the history of the world, have two black people ever acted like the twins did in TF2?

    Question 2: Is it possible for any character or characters in any movie to represent the way a whole race acts or behaves?

    Question 3: In the history of the world, have two white people ever acted like the twins did in TF2?

    Question 4: Has Michael Bay, or anyone else in the know, come out and said that these two characters are based on a certain race or that they were meant to be racist?

    Question 5: Does anyone ever complain when a white person acts “less than intelligent” in a movie?

    Question 6: When a character in a movie acts “less than intelligent” in a movie, does everyone assume that in real life, everyone of that skin color acts that way?

    Statement 1: People need to relax, learn the definition of “racism,” take intent into consideration, and ask themselves, “is this character’s intent to represent a whole race or just one individual who might act a certain way?”

    • T. Van

      @ Steve

      1) In the history of US film, yes. Many of them.
      2) Unfortunately, many people believe that the twins are fair representations of an entire “race” (just read some of the posts above).
      3) As the behavior in question does not fit into any widely circulated stereotypes of Europeans or European Americans, the question is irrelevant.
      4) Has Charles Manson ever confessed his involvement in Helter Skelter? To wit, why *would* anyone do that?
      5) Yes.
      6) Unfortunately, more than enough people do.

      Statement #2: While you may mean well, I honestly don’t think you understand the concern in this matter. Now, you don’t *have* to understand the concern, but the reality that any reasonable adult with more than 20 Facebook friends would’ve anticipated that the twins would be received as hurtful. So, the real question for people to pose themselves is, “why even go there?”

      • T. Van

        Addition to #3:

        While the question remains irrelevant, the answer is “yes”… and many of them have done so wearing blackface.

      • Steve

        T. Van,

        You seem like an intelligence person, so hopefully we can have a debate between two people who disagree without pointing out each others grammatical errors, etc; that is all I want!

        So how are movies supposed to have characters that have any personality at all? Honestly, someone could be offended at every single movie character if they wanted to because every character has a personality based off of what we have seen in our lives on this planet.

        You stated that question 3 was irrelevant because there are no current stereotypes about Europeans or European Americans (“White People” right?) that would support those characters. Is that summary correct?

        If that is correct, then you would be saying that characters in movies have to be based on stereotypes.

        I think questions 3 is relevant. Have we seen white people act like the twins in TF2? Both of us answer “Yes.” I believe characters in movies are all based on what we have seen in the real world. That’s really all we can draw on anyway isn’t it? Even “aliens” have characteristics that are “human,” or else they have no “personality” at all.

        If there are people that think that a character in a movie represents a whole race, isn’t that their problem? Do we really have to pander to the ignorant people and censor the personalities of our characters in movies?

        Did people get this angry when “Joe Dirt” came out? Did that movie make every black person think all white people had sex with their sister and dip their french fries off of a big piece of turd? Probably ignorant people yes. Has there been white people that have acted like that? I’m sure of it! And that is why the character was thought of in the first place! But I know that most white people do not act like that.

        Did people get angry when “Friday” came out? Did that movie make every white person think that all black people sat around all day in front of their house smoking pot and making bad drug deals? Probably ignorant people yes. Have there been black people that have acted like that? I’m sure of it! And that is why…but I know most black people don’t act like that.

        I can understand if every black or white person in TF2 acted exactly the same way as the twins. That I would get. But that wasn’t the case. Something makes me wonder if TF2 would have been directed by a black person, if reactions would have been the same. What do you think?

        Ok, so how to we fix this issue? Take every single questionable character out of a movie? You would be left with nothing. No characters, no movie, nothing.

        I believe there will always be racism to a degree, as long as there are humans anyway. Does it still exist in the US? Definitely. Are there black people that are just as racist as white people? Definitely. In fact, more than people would like to admit because people cannot be honest with themselves. I also believe a significant portion of it exists because of “false positives” or people that call “racism” where there really isn’t any. Is that hard to believe? Not really. I understand people are probably over sensitive at this point in US history. But maybe we can start to realize this and move on a little bit.

        Anyway, I just don’t see the racism. Sorry. Bad humor? Oh Yes. Bad movie making? Oh hell yes. A movie that makes me believe all people of a certain color act that way? Not a chance.

      • T. Van

        @ Steve

        The twins were characterized in a manner that was consistent with negative stereotypes that go back a number of generations (the characters you’ve described from Friday and Joe Dirt don’t meet that threshhold). By not employing these stereotypes, one will not offend people.

        Additionally, while there are negative stereotypes for a variety of groups, the behavior of the twins does not fit into the framework of negative European American stereotypes.

        In relation to the term “racist,” I’ve yet to label anyone in this discussion. Ssuch. You should consult Uncool— hypocrite that he/she is— in that regard.

      • Steve

        T. Van,

        I did not mean to imply you were calling people on here racists.

        By chance, do you go after obvious sources, such as a lot of rappers, that perpetuate negative stereotypes of the black community? Or how about the poster on the next page who says not all blacks want to go to movies with a bunch of whites all the time? There’s a few things wrong with his post. He a black man that thinks the twins were made to attract black viewers. This kind of thinking, I think, would deserve more of your attention.

        If the twins offend, then I’m glad they are out of the next movie. I would view them as more of a product of a much larger issue. I’m trying to be delicate here, but I hope you realize there is a section of the black community that is doing absolutely nothing to dispel some of the negative stereotypes. I hope you go after these areas will much more veracity than on this message board.

      • T. Van

        @ Steve

        While there are a number of problems with your last argument, the main problem is that you’re getting into topics that have very little to do with this discussion. Reading the posts above, they include racial insults, at least one racial slur, a reference to Hitler and a good share of name-calling. So, it would seem, there is more than enough reason for a person to ask questions about this particular discussion, as opposed to some of the various tangents you interjected.

        That said, is it safe to say that you denounce those in this discussion who’ve claimed the twins were accurate portrayals of African Americans?

      • Steve

        T. Van,

        Of course they were not accurate portrayals of African Americans.

        “the main problem is that you’re getting into topics that have very little to do with this discussion.”

        I find it hard to have this discussion about the twins without expanding the conversation into areas that interconnected.

        “While there are a number of problems with your last argument”

        What problems? Are you saying that a section of the black community is not a perpetuating source of stereotypes? I just asked you some honest questions. I’m not trying to argue with you, just talk. Personally, I think that a black man who believes the twins were put into TF2 to attract black viewers is an issue that is connected to the discussion we are having. Why can’t we talk about black sources that perpetuate stereotypes? Isn’t that connected to this discussion? How would it not be? I feel that you are avoiding certain discussions. If you don’t want to have them here, I understand.

      • Steve

        T. Van,

        Look at Michael Gay’s comment on the next page (click on “Newer Comments”)

        If that comment does not bother in a few different ways then something is wrong.

        I feel that you have taken the time to comment on all the other ignorant posts here, why not this one?

      • T. Van

        @ Steve

        The very premise of your question is mortifying. It implies that innocent people who are harmed by stereotypes should somehow shift their blame to people whom they most likely don’t know— as opposed to (or to a similar extent) those who use those stereotypes against them.

        Now

      • T. Van

        Now, regarding the other poster you cite, I generally don’t take Internet-based claims of cultural background, gender or age at face value— especially when the person uses a handle that’s clearly a joke.

        P.S. as you disagree with those who’ve agreed with the stereotype, it’s too bad that you didn’t express that in direct response to said comments.

      • Steve

        T. Van,

        Mortifying? Well, I can see you are not ready for an honest conversation because you side-step my questions and/or say that I am implying something that I am not necessarily implying. All I am trying to do is have a real conversation with you. Alas, I feel it isn’t going to happen.

        “Now, regarding the other poster you cite, I generally don’t take Internet-based claims of cultural background, gender or age at face value— especially when the person uses a handle that’s clearly a joke.”

        I actually agree with that comment. But, take out the fact that the poster may or may not be black, and you still have the issues in his post that I am talking about. I find it convenient that you take this stance with just certain posts, as no one on this site it actually proven to be anything they say at all…so why comment on anything? It could all be made up. It wouldn’t matter to me if you were black, white, or whatever, I’m still having the same conversation.

      • T. Van

        @ Steve

        Yes, mortifying. As some of the negative stereotypes in this discussionhave actually led to real-life people people hurt (assaulted, denied housing, denied jobs, harrassed… maybe even killed). You may choose to write your flippant posts on this topic if you wish, but I hope you recognize that there are real-life consequences to “it was their own prejudice” mentality which your posts support.

        That said, I suggest you assess your own “convenient” replies on this topic. I honestly didn’t expect replying to so many people once this discussion started, and have little interest to replying to even more. Unless you’re using multiple handles, you’ve employed the very “convenient” selectivity of which you’ve accused me. How about you start at the top of page #2 and respond to the person that’s opted to throw out a highly offensive directive? Or maybe you truly denounce those on this board who’ve endorsed stereotypes (not the indirect, somewhat passive response you previously gave in that regard).

        So how about it? How about you go reply to someone other than me?

      • T. Van

        Correction: “some of the negative stereotypes ‘discussed’ on this board have led to people being hurt.”

        I’m not inferring a direct causal relationship to this discussion.

      • Steve

        T. Van,

        Let me just reset this discussion because I feel it is going nowhere fast.

        I just have a statement and a question.

        Statement: Calling someone racist or referring to something they have done as racist is a very significant accusation! Using that word to describe people or things they have done is extremely hurtful. You wouldn’t just accuse someone of murdering or raping someone so casually would you? That leads to my question.

        Question: If you choose to accuse someone of racism, then you had better be ready to defend your accusation with EVIDENCE! That is what you are not doing here T. Van! You are just making accusations, twisting words to fit your own agenda, and side-stepping any relevant conversation by deeming it “irrelevant” because you don’t want to talk about it. Here’s what I’m asking of you: prove it to me! I am giving you a chance to prove these accusations. Educate me and everyone else on this board. Use examples, cite sources, use your brains to actually prove these accusations instead of just posting messages without any substance to back up your claims what-so-ever!

        T. Van, I am not asking much. I am asking you to prove that the twins from TF2 were racist. If you make a claim like that, you should have to provide actual evidence that supports it. That is a totally fair thing to ask of you. Please take this opportunity to educate people!

      • T. Van

        @ Steve

        Now we’ve finally gotten somewhere.

        1) I can appreciate what you’ve written about labelling someone “racist,” as that’s what a number of posters have done in this discussion. Most often in this discussion, the label was placed on those who stated the twin characters were stereotypical. Please be so kind as to share your most recent post as a reply to those using such a label, above.

        2) Your prior words about rap artists probably illustrates the clearest example of side-stepping the discussion as related to this article, so I rather doubt you’re in a position to deal that card.

        3) For the record, if you honestly cannot understand why so many people have issues with the twin characters— or believe that people have been “overly-sensitive” in relation to them— I seriously doubt that either I or this discussion board can assist you in that regard. Nonetheless, I wish you well if that is indeed your endeavor.

        4) I’ve not accused anyone in this discussion of being a racist. Please refer to point #1 in that regard.

      • T. Van

        5) For the good of the order, also note that I have not accused the twins of being “racist.” I wouldn’t want anyone accussing me of not responding to the “most relevant” question.

      • Steve

        OK, so basically you are telling me that you cannot provide evidence that the twins are racist. So why you are on this board arguing against people that are saying they are not racist is beyond me.

        I gave you a chance to prove a point, and again you decide to be very evasive. I think you have just exposed yourself. Congratulations.

      • T. Van

        @ Steve

        No, I was giving you a chance to actually read my posts instead of jumping to conclusions without adequate information (after all, I’ve no need to justify an argument I’ve not made). Judgig by your last post, I suspect you’ve now looked through my prior postings, and now see that you’ve been posting under a false set of assumptions. Instead of showing enough character to apologize, you continue pointing at your red herring.

        To answer your questioning of why I’m in this discussion, your answer rests in a number ofmy earlier

      • T. Van

        … of my earlier posts. Had you read them before making assumptions, we both would’ve saved some time. Sheesh. Still; turn about is fair play… why don’t you tell the rest of us why *you* are here?

        “The Internet. Where we shoot first and ask questions later.”

  • Byron

    oh you idiots who think the twins strongly embody racism need to just STFU and put a cock in it….the twins were just given characterization as slacker dudes by their tone and personality…that was done for the purpose of giving humanity to these robots so that they arent all the same…optimus sounds elderly and wise because he is a leader and an elder…wheelie embodied a brooklynite and the twins embodied ghetto dudes…big deal…the filmmakers are just trying to classify the way people are in the world today and give those personalities to robots…it wasnt done to be racist but you soft sensitive idiots take every little thing the wrong way and b!tch about it …whining like its racist, stereotypical and offensive…quit crying….get over the whole racial thing…everyone is different and movies will incorporate diversity into their stories…..if a magazine has models on a front cover, and 3 are white, 1 indian and 1 hispanic and 2 asian for example….there is sudden uproar about it being racist because there is no black girl on it….good god just STFUUUU its so frustrating already….it just so happens there were not any black models to include so suddenly its racist….its not about race…its about people not being able to let go of the whole, oh its because im black thing….get over it…black people have been free for hundreds of years and been treated equal for the past 50….move the F on ….. transformers was made to entertain and you fools have to find one little thing about it that you see as negative and blow it out of proportion….it was a great movie….but the reviews were bad not cuz of storytelling…they were bad because you stupid people have to zero in on two minor characters that were only seen like in 3 or 4 scenes in the movie…..give it a rest…what’s next…you will have a new robot in the film ….maybe the main villain will have a german or chinese or spanish accent….and oh suddenly its racist…ok worst movie of the year…..give it up….stfu and go watch a documentary on slavery and the civil rights movement if it bothers you so damn much

  • Ed

    Racism?
    Weren’t they Chevy’s?

  • micheal gay

    Listen to you idiots. im a black man and in my opinion i could give two S**** about the robots. stereotypical? yes. i personally do believe they were created to attract african americans to watch the film. not too many black people want to watch a movie filled with a bunch of whites all the time….

  • Steve

    OK, so basically you are telling me that you cannot provide evidence that the twins are racist. So why you are on this board arguing against people that are saying they are not racist is beyond me.

    I gave you a chance to prove a point, and again you decide to be very evasive. I think you have just exposed yourself. Congratulations.

  • Occasional Superstar

    And to add to the racist theme throughout the movie, The main Decepticon robot with the staff had a face like an african mask.

    Michael Bay just had racism sprinkled though out that whole movie. It was an interesting piece of expression.

    • ubcool

      lol

  • F Man

    It seems that when a person sees another person the first thing they do is recognize them by race, which creates stereotypes and hurtful assumptions.

    Its terrible. The twins are not racist and if you think so you must have some personal issue or love the gratification of knowing more about a topic than someone else.

    In today’s society there is no “majority” race. There are only those who feel oppressed because they have given up on hope for tolerance and/or are to lazy to see past people that hold onto discrimination.

  • Ryan

    I thought Transformers 1 was pretty good. TF2 is absolute balls. Those 2 twin robots were 2 of many shitty characters. The movie was so full of lame weak ass humor, I imagine that’s what it’s like to watch a Tyler Perry movie. The writers were probably pulling each others finger and giggling the whole time they were writing this thing. Every person who was involved with all the dialogue in the movie should be beaten and all shipped off to some remote island and there they could make all the shitty scripts they want.

  • dilldofaggins

    every post i tend to see that involves racism you have people get up on there pedistool and decide whats racist, the 2 robots reminded me of a mix of african-american and rednecks so im guessing its racist to make a street wise hick? im sure once im dun typing there will be 100 reasons why im wrong but i dont care just love seeing you lot acting like you know about racism when most of you who post about it look in websters dictionary to find what it meens and im sure that will be taken as me being racist ill be the first to say i hate everyone the same robot cars who talk like hood rednecks and aliens who talk with perfect english included so to those who comment on this suck it dry

  • Frank Mondana

    Racism goes too far in this case because there was no malice intended (notice I said intended). There are other black actors voicing parts in these films. Does that mean I think all evil robots sound like Tony Todd? There are Asian actors involved. And white, and others. I’m pretty sure most people seeing the film didn’t come away thinking that the twins were representative of all black people. If some did then the racism was there long before the movie.
    Yes, they are stereotypes and in poor taste but to go as far as “racist” is telling in some ways that we are getting way too sensitive. Even worse is that it is a selective sensitivity. It appears to be OK to use stereotypes done in “fun” for almost every other race but if there is so much as a single possibly offensive piece towards blacks than it is pure evil and the people behind it might as well wear white sheets and have swastika tattoo’s on their heads.
    There is a comedian who does a show that’s basically a female Andrew Dice Clay. She plays a Long Island Jewish housewife character for her act. The entire show is jokes based on how this character is a bigoted idiot but doesn’t think she is. She’s not as funny as she thinks she is and it’s a little maddening that Clay was run out for being a misogynistic bigot even though he was doing a caricature of an Italian guy. Anyhow, that’s not my point. What is is that the woman uses every single racial epithet and offensive stereotype known. Except for one. She only says “the blacks” when doing a joke about blacks. She never uses the “n-word”. She is obviously doing a character (based on a stereotype herself) but never risks offending black people. It’s OK if Asians, gay, lesbian, Catholics, Jews, Italians, Latino, Greek, and other groups are called by the worst possible words but you better not use the so-called “N-word” despite the circumstance in this case.
    I’m Italian (1st generation, my parents came from Sicily). The little R/C robot in the film was a stereotype Italian “hood”. Was I offended, nope. Bay probably thought it was funny, that’s all.
    My wife is black and a hundred years ago when we first met she said something (in fun) about how my ancestors were slave owners in America. We both stopped and thought of something about that remark at almost the same time. There are people who think that all white folks were involved with slavery and all black people were slaves. Here is the problem with that, it just isn’t true.
    I can trace my family back almost 300 years and they all lived in the middle of Sicily, one side were cobblers (shoemakers for you young pups) the other side were farmers. Nobody was even involved with shipping so there wasn’t even contact with the slave ships coming out of the Mediterranean Sea. Like many Sicilian families, they were involved in Vendettas and had too much fun killing each other over century old arguments.
    My wife can go back about 200 years and they somehow managed to stay away from slavery by living where there were no “collections” going on. About 100 years ago they moved to France.
    Sorry for the length of this but the big point is that we generalize many things while placing too much emphasis on others. Everyone has developed this tunnel vision and simply don’t try to see any different viewpoints.

  • Matt

    Whatever it takes to get somebody to go see the big steaming pile of Michael Bay crap.

  • Zap

    I agree with all you super sensitive intellectuals who say this film is obviously racist. Of course if it would of been made by Tyler Perry it would be ok. Welcome to double standards America where the only important right is the right to be offended.

  • Kev

    This T.Van guy is a total idiot. He hasn’t once responded to anyone’s argumentwith a rational response. T VAN how can you not see that YOU are the only one who is saying that the robots are “acting black”. You! That makes you the one who is stereotyping black people. Not Michael Bay, not anyone else. Anyone can act like these robots. I meet teenagers all the time of all races that act like these robots. You haven’t responded to this ONCE!! By the way Transformers 2 is an awful movie. Really really awful, but not because it’s racist, because it was boring.

    • Tate

      The guy is a creep and an obvious troll. I can’t understand why people even bother responding to him.

    • T. Van

      @ Kev & Tate

      And, yet, here you are.

      Seriously, it’s as if you’ve posted your comments without reading more than 2 prior posts in this discussion. Before you attack people with labels such as “troll,” “creep” or “idiot” try posting on the actual discussion topic. Otherwise, coming out of the peanut gallery with your low-class personal attacks only confirms that you’re very thing you claim to criticize.

      Better yet, try reading the posts already made in the discussion. Or just try *reading*. The beauty of reading is that it helps a person understand the actual point that someone is making— before one writes responses to straw men and red herrings. There’s a certain absurdity to your claim that I’ve stereotyped or haven’t responded to anyone in this discussion. Of course, anyone who beleives they always encounter actual people who supposedly act like the twins probably has larger concerns to deal with.

      Hmmmm. Seeing as how this discussion has been off of the main page for quite some time, I can only wonder how the two of you “found” it.

  • ubcool

    ok how about if i say it, Dyke you are a troll.

    • T. Van

      @ Uncool

      Wow. You actually think you’re in a position to place such a label on someone else. Look, I recognize that you and your few real and imaginary “friends” (some of whom you look to have brought to this discussion board) have this weird obsession with me (thus your stalking) but how about you cut your losses and let this go?

      As you’re doing nothing more than calling names, I suspect you could actually spend your time doing something productive.

  • ubcool

    ‘Ah, but here’s where you give yourself far too much credit for “thinking.” If either you or DC had the ability to correctly represent what others have been writing, we could actually get somewhere.’

    this is classic, almost everyone of your posts has been a ridiculous,overwrought, irrelevant argument based on an intentional misinterpretation of what someone has just said. no one is getting anywhere with you, as you are either an ignorant idiot or a troll, and it is also why nobody else can be bothered to reply to you.

    and the only person who needs to read some books here is you as I am getting tired of having to explain to you the difference between race and culture. as well as at the same time having to explain others peoples posts.

    • Observer

      Hey ubcool. You use gay slurs and then think you have the moral high ground to call other people racist. You’re pathetic. How many different names have you used in this blog, anyway?

  • LaTasha M.

    Ummmm hello… you guys do realize that you are talking about robots… Right? They don’t have races… Also I believe they should have brought back the twins because they made me laugh… just because they talk like that didn’t mean they were being racist Micheal Bay was trying to put a little humor in the movie and I believe he did a wonderful job… With all of the movies… People need to stop reading to much into thing. This movie was meant to entertain, if you didn’t like it o the twins, get over it and don’t watch the movie

  • carlin douglass

    I love transformers and I loved the twins they were my favourite characters in tf2 but when I heard they were dropped from tf3 I was so dissapointed and when I saw the movie 4 days ago in the scene where all the autobots are driving into a shed type place at the back of the line where the twins. So they weren’t really dropped from the film as they were in it so if it is true that michael bay is giving 25000 doallors to anyone who spots the twins in the film i saw them.

  • chandra

    I am sorry but i saw the autobots twins in the movie in vehicle mode along with the autobots and were at the end of the autobots. I saw them!

  • chandra

    they were spotted after the encounter with shockwave. And the part where bumblebee was training.

  • christina

    Reading everybodys comments an I carnt believe what I’m reading ro be honest. Myself and my son were well impressed with the arrival of the twins in t2 and didn’t find them racist at all! I’m intrigued why black ppl would be offended at there speach when forgive me but don’t white people speak the same? Look at the brilliant eminem for example. And did optimus not say in t1 they have learnt are lingo thro the world wide web? My son has every transformer you can think of includen the twins I spent weeks finding that figure 4 his birthday and he was gutterd they wernt in t3. Ithink the transformers whitty 1liners are what make the films that bit extra special and more relateable.afterall isn’t that why we all love them.

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