From co-creators and executive producers Bill Hader and Alec Berg, the HBO dark comedy series Barry is in its final season, with hitman turned acting student turned really emotionally and morally confused man Barry Berkman (Hader, who also directed every episode of the fourth season) locked up in jail and facing all of his past deeds. Every action has consequences, which not only goes for Barry, but for all the characters in his world orbit, including his love Sally (Sarah Goldberg), acting teacher Gene Cousineau (Henry Winkler), mobster NoHo Hank (Anthony Carrigan), and family friend Monroe Fuches (Stephen Root), and it’s quite clear that they’re not all headed for the happy ending they might have envisioned for themselves, by the story’s conclusion.

During this 1-on-1 interview with Collider, Hader talked about when he knew what the very ending of the show would be, how the structure stayed the same while what happened within it changed radically throughout the course of the series, how the midseason shift came about, how it felt to tell a story that was fully supported by a network that never pressured them for more than how they had envisioned it, having the goal of directing a feature film now that he’s had the experience of directing episodes of Barry, and the moment during the final season that made him cry.

Collider: I know that production for this had been shut down in 2020, before Season 3 started filming, because of COVID, and that you spent that time writing the fourth season, and then going back and reworking the third season. Is what we’ll see at the end of Season 4, that very clear ending that you said presented itself when you were working on the fourth season? Once you knew what the ending would be, did it stay that way?

BILL HADER: Yeah. Actually the very, very ending of the show, in the finale, I had the idea for while we were doing Season 2. During Season 2, I turned to Alec [Berg] and said, “You know, it could be interesting, if we ended it like this.” And he said, “Oh, yeah, that’d be great.” But then, how we got there was so different than what I thought. So, it’s a little thing, but it’s the ending of the show. Everything else changed radically. The structure is very much the same, but what happens within it was radically different.

Bill Hader as Barry Berkman in Season 4 of Barry
Image via HBO

There’s a very interesting, very definite shift in pretty much everything, about midway through this season. Was that something you were always working toward, or did that evolve as you were working on the fourth season? What led you to that?

HADER: It just became more of a feeling of, where do we wanna see these characters? For what the characters are going through, the best way to dramatize that was by having these big shifts midseason. That was the initial idea, especially with Barry and Sally, and then it just lent itself to that feeling. I don’t watch a lot of television. I always saw this as a big book, where you’re really following these characters, and you see that in books, what happens midway through, where there’s a thing in another era. I hope, though, that people can watch the final episode and it makes them think about the pilot, and you go, “Oh, wow, this whole thing is one big story.” A lot of TV that I watch is more episodic, which is why I’m not that good with keeping up with TV shows, unless it’s Drag Race, which I like.

Do you think you’ll ever get to a point where you go back and watch this whole thing together, to see if it feels exactly how you had hoped?

HADER: No, because I just know I’ll be disappointed. You’ve gotta go for it, but like with everything I’ve ever done, it exceeds your grasp. You just have to be going for a bigger ambition, and just try to do the best you can.

When I spoke to Henry Winkler for this season, he told me that the cast had been contracted for 12 episodes a season, for five seasons, but that you ended up doing eight episodes each, for four seasons, because that’s just where things took you and Alec Berg, for the story that you were telling. What was it like to be able to create and develop this, tell this story, make this show as a creative, and know that you had that support, where you didn’t necessarily have to fulfilling all those episodes, if it didn’t benefit the story? How was it to make this show with a network that supported that?

HADER: It’s Amy Gravitt at HBO, and Casey Bloys, and Aida Rodgers, one of our producers. I was just insanely, incredibly lucky to be able to do it that way and to have a place that said, “Well, what works for you?” I know for a fact, because I talked to them, but there was another producer, early on, that said, “Well, it’s gotta be a 13-episode season.” And I went, “I don’t even know what that looks like,” because I had already mapped out a season, and it came out to eight episodes. Even with that, I was trying to make it feel all part of a piece and make it feel like a four-hour movie, which at that time, was a crazy idea. Now, every movie is four hours. I was just like, “Yeah, I just don’t think my brain works like that. I don’t know if I can do that, and keep the story going with a 13-episode order.” They said, “But you’ll make so much more money.” I was like, “Yeah, but the show will be shit. It won’t be very good.” But I never had that talk with Casey and Amy. That was never an issue. It was always, “All right, this is what works for you? Okay.”

Bill Hader as Barry Berkman in Season 4 of Barry
Image via HBO

You started off directing the pilot, and now in the last season, you’re directing every episode. Is the next step now looking to direct a feature film? Is that like the goal?

HADER: For sure, I would definitely like to direct a feature next. That’s the big goal. That’s where I’m writing stuff too It’s always features. I definitely have ideas for TV shows, but I have no idea what that will look like.

Is that something you want to do right away? Are you actively looking to direct something this year or next year, or are you not thinking that specifically about it yet?

HADER: My girlfriend and I were just figuring out that I haven’t had a vacation in 10 years. I went with her to San Francisco, but that doesn’t really count. So, I’m going to have a vacation. I need to go into sponge mode, where I’m watching stuff and reading. Even during the pandemic, I was so stressed out and paranoid that I couldn’t really focus on anything. So, it’s more about trying to get into a better [headspace]. I meditate, but every time I sit down to meditate, I end up passing out and falling asleep. I think I just need a break.

That seems like it would be a good, healthy plan.

HADER: The plan needs to be more sleep.

Bill Hader as Barry Berkman in Season 4 of Barry
Image via HBO

Obviously your job on this show doesn’t just end when the actors wrap. What was the last day on set like for you? Were you able to absorb everything, or anything at all?

HADER: No. I was at Big Bear. We had like three different wraps. We had the official wrap. And then, we did some pickup shots, and we wrapped then. And then, we had another round of pickups. The initial wrap was at a location in Big Bear, and it was really nice. It was really beautiful. I gave a speech to the crew, and it just really hit me that I wasn’t gonna get to work with these people and see them, every day. I’ve basically seen them and worked with them, every day for six years. I got really emotional and thanked them all. And then, I got in a van and they drove me back home. It was late at night, and as it went down the mountain, I just started crying. It just all hit me. I was like, “Oh, my gosh, it’s over. What a feeling.” It was pretty emotional. I got the same way at Saturday Night Live. You can see it. I was Stefon, and when you say goodbye to those things, it means so much to you. You think of the person you were when you started the show, and who I am now, I feel like I have much better understanding of myself, and all the good and the bad, and taking care of yourself. And then, also being able to direct, which was a thing I wanted to do forever, and write, because I never really had much confidence in myself as a writer when I was at Saturday Night Live, that’s been massive. It’s been so great. It’s so fun to get to have what I feel like is a style that worked for the show, and that I got to hone a style while I was making the show. I can look at the pilot, and then look at the very last episode, and go, “Oh, wow, I’ve really matured.” I feel like I can get better. You can always get better, or not get better, but improve little things. You see mistakes you made and go, “All right. Okay.”

Do you realize that you started immediately backtracking on the compliment you just gave yourself?

HADER: I’m terrible. Look, I’m from Oklahoma. The fact that I said I’m good at something means I should be shot out of a cannon and into Kansas. But no, I’m very happy with that. I’m very proud of that.

Bill Hader as Barry Berkman in Season 4 of Barry
Image via HBO

It’s been such a pleasure to talk to you and the cast every season because it’s been really clear that everybody clearly loved the job of working on this show and making it together. Even for this last season, everyone I’ve spoken to from the cast expressed how they would have been happy to keep going, if they could have kept working with you and each other. That’s a testament to the environment that you created on this set.

HADER: That’s great. I really appreciate that. I was a production assistant when I moved out here, whenever that was, like 1999. I did all the jobs, and I just remember the sets that were well run, it always started from the top, and sets that were poorly run were miserable. It’s one of the worst things. I remember being a PA on a movie, where I was working 20-hour days and the director was yelling at everybody, producers screaming everybody, and the whole thing was really awful. That’s all massive insecurity, and it stinks. So then, when you have your own thing, you just never want it to be like that. It doesn’t need to be like that. There’s zero reason for it.

Barry airs on Sunday nights on HBO and is available to stream at HBO Max.