Directed by Bassam Tariq from a story he developed with actor Riz Ahmed, the indie drama Mogul Mowgli follows Zed (Ahmed), a British Pakistani rapper set to head out on his first world tour when he finds himself suddenly facing an illness that will most certainly derail his dream and change his life. While on his journey of self-discovery and the exploration of his self-worth, Zed learns that he is more than his own ambition and that the legacy of family can be just as meaningful as success.

During this 1-on-1 interview with Collider, Tariq talked about how Mogul Mowgli developed out of a desire to work with a friend, his unusual road to becoming a filmmaker, not letting imposter syndrome stop you, the close collaborative partnership he and Ahmed shared, and how the blend of stories wove together. Although he couldn’t reveal any details, he also talked about taking it one day at a time while they develop Blade, which he’ll direct for Marvel, how excited he is to build on the source material that’s already there, and everything he hopes to learn about filmmaking from the experience.

Collider: You started your filmmaking career in documentaries. Was that what you set out to do, or is that just where you found yourself, on your way to making a narrative feature? How did you end up working in documentaries?

BASSAM TARIQ: I think the more I’ve tried to strategize, the worse the luck I’ve had. I’ve found that, if you find a truth that excites you or compels you, you just keep running towards it. Even with Mogul Mowgli, it was a real desire to work with a friend. Riz [Ahmed] was a friend. So much of the film is us wrestling ideas with each other and sometimes us fighting, It’s literally us having a dialogue in each scene, in a beautiful way. That’s what we wanted to do. Every time I close my eyes and think of my other projects, I think of the relationships that came out of them because that’s what really matters, at the end of it.

What was it that made you want to be a filmmaker and storyteller? Was there one thing that set you down that path?

TARIQ: I wish it was that simple. That’s a good question. I don’t know the answer to that.

mogul-mowgli-bassam-tariq
Image via via Ryan Lash

Did it come from a love of movies, or was it more subconscious than that?

TARIQ: When I think about high school, Radiohead played a huge pivotal part. I saw the documentary that was made about them, Meeting People Is Easy, that was done around the OK Computer era. I watched that film so many times. None of the songs are completely played on it, but I still went back to it, all the time. And then, also seeing how they had a desire to connect with people, but then they also had this desire to step away, I was like, “What is this friction?” There’s such a desire to give, as an artist. You have to learn to be generous, but you have to also learn how to hold back. I found that to be so compelling, and that was the format of the film. When I started to learn that it’s about giving, but then also knowing how to have restraint, that’s so much of what that film is. It’s so colorful, but then also so held back and so distant. That was my gateway drug into more experimental work.

The way I got into this was that I just needed to make money in college. I had a Vietnamese friend who did wedding videos and he was like, “Hey, why don’t you borrow my camera and you can maybe shoot some stuff as well?” I was like, “Yeah, I’ll do that.” I was doing medical tests on my body, and that was not a healthy way to get through college. This was in Austin. He let me borrow his Canon XL1. He was like, “Make the money back, and then pay me back.” I was so nervous. I had this really expensive camera and I had to do some work to pay it off. From that, I learned how to edit and I shot some stuff in the local Muslim community, and that started to give me a little bit of confidence. The funny thing is, even that work was kind of weird. It had like a subjective personality. I didn’t go to film school. I was an advertising major and I worked in advertising for a little bit. The whole thing with filmmaking, at the start for me, was that maybe it was a way for me to get out of working at a call center, or not doing this or that. That’s how I saw it. I had a love for storytelling, but I don’t think I ever allowed myself to imagine that it could ever be a possibility. It’s so implausible. It’s like saying, “I wanna go play in the NBA.”

In a lot of working class communities, you go to college to become an engineer or a doctor, not because the community likes it, but because they make money. The economics of it makes great sense. Going to college made good sense. But if you graduate in film and someone’s like, “What’s that guy do?,” he’s assisting a director, or doing this or that. It’s looked down upon in our community. When you graduate, it’s the question of, “How much money are you making per year?,” in a lot of immigrant communities. The reason is because we have to support not just ourselves, but also our family members. You’re never just thinking about yourself. So, for me, it was so selfish to just worry about my own thing.

Even when I started getting into documentary, I saw it as a very plausible way because you’re doing something for the larger good. Even though I did these movies that were a little bit experimental, I was doing it because I wanted to show this other side of Pakistan and teach the world about where I’m from. I didn’t realize that it’s actually all just a journey of self-discovery anyway. If you think that you’re doing it for some larger reason, you’re actually quite full of yourself. What you need to realize is that you’re on your own journey of self-discovery, and perhaps if you’re honest, you can give permission to other people to be more honest about themselves. That, in itself, is the win. That’s something that I’ve come to learn. It took me a long time to come to that. Forgive me for the long answer, but I had to provide some context.

Mogul Mowgli image Riz Ahmed
Image via via Strand Releasing

RELATED: ‘Encounter’ Teaser Trailer Features Riz Ahmed Protecting His Sons From a Mysterious Threat

Do you feel like you’re at a point now where you have confidence in saying, “I’m a filmmaker. I’m a director. This is who I am. This is what I do.”?

TARIQ: It took me a long time to come to that. I’m finally coming to understand that this is what I have to say – I’m a filmmaker, I’m a writer, and I’m a director. I meet people and they’re like, “What do you do?,” and I’m like, “I own a butchery in the east village. I’ve got a little burger shop.” And they go, “Okay, cool,” and the conversation stops. There’s this idea of survivor’s guilt or imposter syndrome, where you’re like, “Oh, my God, I’m doing this thing, but am I any good at it? What will other people think? As projects become more visible in the future, it’s like, “Fuck, what does that look like?” There’s something quite nice about just doing something by yourself and just alone, and no one else is there to mess with you. It’s exciting to be in your own lab with some friends, and then allow that out into the world.

At what point did you start to think about Mogul Mowgli and what it would become? Did it start with an idea? Did it start with a character? Did it just start with talking to Riz Ahmed?

TARIQ: It was really just a friendship and the desire to really interrogate a friendship to see what could come from our own insecurities. We did a trip to Pakistan together. I really pushed for us to go to Pakistan together because I wanted to see if I could spend time with this guy. I was like, “Do I wanna invest this time in my life with him, or do we just bounce? Can we get along with each other?” It was a test of that. And of course, we did, or we wouldn’t have made the film. We’d be somewhere random and he would have a book with him and be writing, all the time. I realized that he’s actually a writer that just happens to also be a phenomenal actor. For me, it was really important to reel in the lyricism and see a character and see an arc as told through music. I wanted to do an artist’s journey, and particularly one where we learn about him through music.

And then, on top of that, were the health issues. When you have health issues, going to the bathroom is something that no one talks about because it’s so hard. It’s really funny, but it’s also really demeaning. I’ve had a few instances in my life when my dad had to help me, one or two times. I have young kids, and my kids will be so mad at me, but at the same time, I still have to wash their butts. When I was writing this, I was washing so many kids’ butts that I was like, “That needs to be a part of this, in some capacity, washing and being there for each other.” That’s where the idea of the father being the one in the end, helping him get back to some kind of singing was very important, and the way we got to that was really a discovery on set. We filmed the movie chronologically and I knew it was gonna start with a concert, on stage to a big audience, and it was gonna end with a concert for his father in the bathroom. I knew that it was gonna be that. I just didn’t know if it would work or not. But those were the two things that I needed.

mogul-mowgli-riz-ahmed-02
Image via via Strand Releasing

I love how there are all of these things that seem like they shouldn’t work because they all seems so unrelated – from the story of a rapper to the whole health aspect of it to this idea of family and legacy – and yet it blends into such an interesting story.

TARIQ: It was our editor who was able to really manage so many of our desires to connect all of these things. The reality is that it’s a father-son story that we wanted to make sure was connected through something that felt very lived and real. Once you’re able to get very specific and dive deeper and deeper into something, then you’re able to find those connections. If you look at it on paper, it’s also about migration, it’s also about auto-immune illnesses, it’s also a musical, it’s also horror, with this random dude chasing him. You’re like, “Wait, what?” I just hoped it would come together. That’s also part of our tradition. If you look at the Mogul paintings or the Mogul architecture, they took from everything. They didn’t just limit themselves to certain color patterns or certain styles. They were able to pull from everything. There was this one mosque in Pakistan that was just wild. It looks like a fiesta. It’s full of different colors and different styles. That’s what the Moguls were doing. They were a part of different dynasties and different cultures, and they came together to form something. That is something that I want us to have permission to take from as well. That is part of the beautiful heritage that we come from.

You didn’t have the typical director-actor relationship with Riz Ahmed on this. Once you got on set, what it was like to watch him take this character and bring it to life, and to see what he went through while he was playing this role?

TARIQ: It was a lot. One thing I would say is that honesty was really the most important part – for me to be honest with him and for him to be honest with me. Early on, he was guiding me to believe that we were gonna get through it. He was like, “I need you to believe that, no matter what happens, you’re my brother and we’re gonna get through this.” That meant everything to me. It gets tense, but staying respectful towards each other and always coming from a place of honesty and love and how we needed each other was really so amazing. We’re very close, so I’m really honored that we’re able to finally bring this film out in America. In the UK, it had its moment and it was a beautiful moment there, so I’m really honored for it to have its moment here as well.

mogul-mowgli-riz-ahmed-01
Image via via Strand Releasing

Now, you’re moving on to your next project, and it was announced back in July that you were in talks to direct Blade. Is it scary to take a big step like that?

TARIQ: It’s wild. It’s beautiful. What I’m trying to do is just take it a day at a time and really learn from the people around me. I’m blessed with this incredible writer, Stacy Osei-Kuffour, who’s the writer on Blade. She’s an amazing Black woman who wrote for Watchmen. She was a story editor there. She’s Emmy nominated for her work on PEN15. She’s an incredible writer with an incredible mind. And of course, there’s Mahershala Ali, and then you have Kevin Feige. There are a lot of great people that I have a lot to learn from, so for me to be in the room with them, it’s just an honor. I’m just taking it a day at a time and we’re building. I’m just so excited for people to see what we’re building, but we’ve got a ways to go. Just keep us in your thoughts and prayers with it because it’s got a legacy, which is exciting. We’re building on something that’s very exciting.

When it goes back to having confidence and battling imposter syndrome, how do you get past that, when you know that the next step in your career is to make a bigger Hollywood movie and to leave the indie world behind, at least for now? How do you even approach thinking about filmmaking or finding where you fit in?

TARIQ: You just admit that you don’t know anything. It’s about surrounding myself by people that know more than me, that come from cultures that are different from mine, and that come from experiences that are closer to what we’re talking about. I can’t really talk about it because Marvel might have a spy sitting around somewhere because they’re crazy like that, but I will say that it’s about shutting up and listening to people, following your heart, knowing how to hone your instincts, and surrounding yourself by people that care about it as much as you do, and see the urgency in telling the story correctly and beautifully and urgently, as it should be told.

Not specific to Marvel, but just in general, is it a strange experience to pitch yourself for a movie and explain your vision for a project?

TARIQ: You always have someone to answer to, unless you’re your own financier and have one million or two million to make a film yourself. It’s just a different relationship. I’ve had producers to answer to, and I like that. This whole idea of singular auteur vision filmmaking, to me, is a capitalist lie. We all need each other. Tarkovsky, who was a singular filmmaker, opens his book by literally saying, “I find truth in dispute,” and that he needs other people in the room to challenge him to find truth. At least he admits it. Whenever “directed by” comes up and you see your name, if you think that is all you, I don’t want to be in that room. I don’t want to work with that director. I don’t want to learn from that director. If someone says, “Well, you sometimes have to be a dick,” I don’t know if I buy that because I’ve seen people that are really compassionate, but also just as confident and demanding and exciting and unapologetic in their vision. So, I think there’s a way to do this and to walk that tightrope. That’s the exciting part. David Lowery recently talked about it as well. He said, you make a film, a film wraps, and it’s done, but you still have to live with how you were and how you treated people, and I thought that was so beautiful and so well said. I wanna try to carry that kind of honesty. I’ll try to aspire to have good manners on set and conduct myself correctly because I do think that we’re all gonna move on to different experiences past this and that’s the one thing I can control.

Mogul Mowgli image Riz Ahmed
Image via via Strand Releasing

Now that there are quite a few film directors also working in television, often because they can direct the entire season of a project, is that something you’ve considered doing? Have you thought about that? Are you interested in tackling longer projects like that as well?

TARIQ: There’s a few things that were in the pipeline, that have stopped right now because of my current project (Blade). For me, film is film, and TV is still film. The way that the forms are now working and the way you can really build stories, it’s really a storyteller’s medium and the lines between film and TV are so blurry. It’s just so exciting to see where things are going. I have so much to learn, and I’m excited to dive deeper into that world as well. Perhaps it’ll be soon after this. Riz and I have been working on a few TV things together, so perhaps after all of this is done, we’ll have the ability for some of that to see the light as well.

What are you most excited about, when it comes to the next step for you, as a filmmaker?

TARIQ: That’s such a great question. Right now, for me, there’s just so much about filmmaking that I don’t know. The more tools I can learn, the better I’ll be able to explore that. There’s so little that you control. The only think you can really control is your temper and your level of compassion towards yourself and others. You have such little control over anything. So, I’m excited to see, as the challenge arises, how I’ll rise to that. As a director, you have to train like an athlete. That’s something that people need to know more and more about. The best directors do that. They also live quite a monastic existence sometimes. It’s not all sex, drugs and rock and roll. It’s actually, “I’m gonna quit coffee because I realized I’m really anxious. I will meditate two times a day, this time in the morning and this time in the evening.” Everyone has their own process, and it’s so beautiful to hear that and to know that I have permission to make something that’s right for me as well. I’m excited to explore that side of it.

Mogul Mowgli is now playing in theaters.