Since the Venice Film Festival, Iâve been hearing the insane buzz regarding director Darren Aronofskyâs new movie âThe Wrestlerâ. People have been raving about not only the film, but Mickey Rourkeâs performance as Randy âThe Ramâ Robinson. And now that Iâve seen it, I understand why.
Simply put, âThe Wrestlerâ is one of the best films Iâve seen this year and I cannot recommend it enough. Performances from the entire cast are amazing, and as you watch the movie, you feel like youâre watching a documentary rather than something scripted. Go see this movie.
Anyway, I recently was able to participate in roundtable interviews with everyone who made the movie and the one below is with director Darren Aronofsky.
During our conversation, Darren tells some great behind the scenes stories, the casting process, what will be on the DVD, and a lot more. Trust me, this is a great interview with a extremely talented director.
As always, you can either read the transcript or listen to the audio by clicking here. Finally, hereâs a link to some clips from âThe Wrestlerâ and hereâs Mattâs review.
Darren Aronofsky: I donât know. It just sort of came and a lot of this film the first time I kind of went and I did a lot of preparation but I didnât come to set with a shot list. I just sort of waited for the actors to create what they were going to do on-set. And I just really wanted to be open to what they were doing and then figure out how to photograph it. So, thereâs really no way toâ¦if youâre doing naturalism thereâs really no way to walk backwards with an actor on their face because first of all to move a camera backwards that quick itâs a pain in the butt, but also-you know-the actor has to sort of block it out because itâs right there. So itâs much more easy to go right behind him and this whole documentary approach it just sort of made sense. And I think at the beginning of the film why thereâs soâ¦youâre going to be with Mickeyâs character for 100 minutes and I think people are curious about Mickey and what he looks like and I wanted to give it a slow introduction and the way he uses his physicality is so unique. I mean, heâs such a full-body actor. Heâs not just a face, you know? So I think that I wanted to emphasize that.
Why is this such an important film for you to make? What made you want to do this project?
Darren: Itâs always the hardest question because itâs not something youâre really conscious of. Itâs something that you feel in your belly and you know if you make a film youâve got to live with these characters for 2 years and youâve got to listen to many, many people say no to you. So youâve got to feel it down there. You never know why it happens, it just sort of percolates up.
Did you have a particular though in wrestling?
Darren: No. I mean, when I graduated film school in 90 somethingâ3 or 4 or something, I made a list of ideas for films. And one of them was called âThe Wrestlerâ and it came out of the observation that no one had ever taken a serious look at this yet. Itâs such a major phenomenon in the
I was going to say that a friend of mine told me that recently a lot of the professional wrestlers from the 80âs have begun dying because of stuff that theyâve done. The hardships that theyâve put into their body. How much did thatâ¦did you research any of that? Did you know about that?
Darren: The ones who have made it this far are far and few in between. I mean, these guys have lived a really hard life and-you know-when you meet someone who 10-15 years ago was playing in front of 50,000 people and now theyâre suddenly in front of 200 people and theyâre not just doing it for the money. Theyâre doing it also to hold onto their craft and hold onto the glory. Itâs really dramatic. Weâre going to do a premiere and weâve got some legends coming down and one of them is in a wheelchair and itâs very, very sad. Theyâve got no protection, no pension, no workerâs comp. Nothing. And they worked 350 days a year and by the time their bodies were used up-you know-their real lives were basically in shambles. So you know itâs a story that hasnât been told and we wanted to tell it.
Did you spend much time going to the matches and were there specific things you picked up, if you did, going to those matches that wound up in the movie?
Darren: Oh, everything. I mean, well first of all everything you see with theâ¦every wrestler you see in the movie is a real wrestler. All the fans are real fans. We put on real live wrestling promotions and put on the matches and when the match was over me, Mickey and the camera woman would run out into the ring. Shoot a piece of the match and weâd leave and a match would be put on. We kind of leap frogged through the night. My co-producer became a wrestling promoter to get it done. And so they were all real moments. And you know, Mickeyâs speech at the end, that we witnessed someone from the Hart familyâone of the young Hart offspringâs that made the speech and we looked at each otherâme and the writerâand weâre like weâve got to use this. This is great. And Mickey actually 2 days before he did that, re-wrote it and made it a little bit of his own.
Can you talk a little about the tone? I was so impressed that it could have been so over the top and kind of a phonyâ¦because some of those matches do come out like that and even when theyâre onstage I didnât feel that. Was that a hard tone to find doing it?
Darren: Yeah, I mean we were just being realistic. It was very tough because-you know-youâre doing somethingâ¦it was an interesting sound issue because youâre doingâ¦the hits are fake in one way but theyâre real as well in the sense that Mickey was actually getting hit but he wasnât getting hit full-force like a realâ¦and neither do real wrestlers. Theyâre holding the punches but theyâre still hitting each other and making huge noises so when we got to sound design-because those noises were underneath crowd and the camera noise and all that other noise-the question was what type of sound effect to put in because you want to put a sound effect in thatâs real, but not John Wayne real, you know? Or John Wayne fake. So this whole line between fake and real was a real challenge as a filmmaker because youâre showing something thatâs scripted and youâre showing something where these athletes are taking care of each other but theyâre also putting on a show and they are actually hurting themselves and each other, so that line was really a big challenge of how to get that right. But, one again, we were going for something that was naturalistic and realistic.
I was particularly speaking more about the performances when theyâre onstage like a Hulk Hogan, who are just so over the top, and I didnât feel you did that in this which I really liked. Did you feel that when they were onstage that they were three times bigger than life or did you choose wrestlers thatâ¦?
Darren: Well, I mean Hulk Hogan happens to be the biggest of the biggest performance and thatâs why heâs the biggest star, but there are wrestlers that definitely were the level of Randy the Ram that we wereâ¦I mean Randy was never supposed to be Hulk Hogan style fame. He was supposed to be like a middle ranged star. He was never supposed to be that famous. And none of these names will mean anything to you but like a Brutus Beefcake, Greg the Hammer Valentine level. Itâs not the super-duper level but anyoneâ¦I mean have you ever heard of Greg the Hammer Valentine? No, you havenât but all the people who were in wrestling for a little bit youâve heard of them. So he was famous within that world but never really broke out of it. And I think Hulk started this whole other type of wrestling where it became as much about the performance as about the athletics, but there were a lot of guys that were just more about the athletics and on the same type of level of performance as The Ram.
Can you talk about why Mickey was your best choice for this role?
Darren: Well, in retrospect it seems obvious, but you never really know that when youâre casting. Itâs very hard to put your finger on it. It was a very hard role to cast because there was the emotional end of the role, which someone had to pull off the humor as well as-you know-the sadness and the tragedy and to find an actor that surprising itâs hard, you know? But when you meet Mickeyâ¦have you guys had him in here yet?
He already was.
Darren: Heâs-you know-heâs got all this armor, you know, and heâs got all these flashy colors on him and theyâre basically all to distract you from looking in his eyes, which are just alive with so much soul and a lot of pain. And as a director when you look in them you just see the fire burning and youâve just got toâ¦it gets exciting. You want to capture that when you see that. And the physicality was tough. Now it seems obvious, but normally heâs about 195, which isâ¦heâs a big guy but heâs no where the size of these wrestlers and he had to put on 35 pounds of muscle. So when I first met him I didnât know if he could do something like that and you know 6 months of lifting, 5,000 calories, he did it.
How different would the movie have been with Nick Cage?
Darren: I mean if I were a painter it would beâ¦itâs about color, you know? The actor is the color. I mean, thatâs howâit would have been a completely different film. Who knows what it would be?
The first match that we seeâRandy and where he actually cuts himselfâthat match seemed to have kind of like a grittier more underground feel than the other fights that we see him in.
Darren: Grittier than the hardcore match?
Yeah. There was something about it. It had this underground sort of feel, soâ¦
Darren: I think it had to do with the room. It was the room. The room was a dancehall in
You know what really compliments the tone of the film too is what you show backstage. The camaraderie that exists between these guys that if you donât know anything about the profession, you might think that some of itâs for real and yet theyâre choreographing everything. Is that intentional to show that?
Darren: Oh absolutely. I mean, you knowâ¦yeah. I wanted to show as much as the world as possible. A lot of that was improvised and it just sort of happened. We were backstage with the wrestlers and I said âhey guys just talk about your matchesâ and we just shot it. The scene with Necro Butcherâthe guy with the staple gun? That was just an improvised scene when they talked about it. We were waiting to go onstage and I said âoh weâve got some time. Letâs just shoot you guys talkingâ and I said âMickey, ask him where heâs from, where he got his name and ask him what youâre going to do tonightâ and the Necro just made up those lines and it came alive.
Is he a real guy and is that his act?
Darren: Oh yeah. Heâs the Necro Butcher. Heâs kind of this underground cult American hero.
He was really tame in the movie.
Darren: Yes, exactly. Got to YouTube and look up Necro Butcher. If you want toâif you want some more gore. If you dare. Heâs kind of this top-billing marquee name. He comes outâ¦heâs always the last match pretty much and heâs underground and the crowds go crazy when he comes because they know theyâre going to get blood. But heâs the sweetest guy in the world. Heâs actually changed his name. CZW now calls him
The perils in the story between Randy and Pam are just-you know-thatâs the central in the story, but can you talk a little bit about developing herâ¦Marissaâs character because I thought that was really another interesting aspect of the story? Itâs just sheâs going through a very similar situation asâ¦.
Darren: Yeah, well that was always when youâre doing an independent film and a stripper shows up a lot of red flags go off because it could be a cliché. But the similarities between a stripper and a wrestler which first of all the truth of the matter is that when wrestlers are doneâreal wrestlers are done with their matchesâthey usually take their gate and go to the strip club. So thatâs probably where the idea started, but then the more we thought about itâan aging stripper and an aging wrestler have a lot of similarities, you know? Theyâre both onstage using their bodies and they both have stage names. They both create a fantasy for the audience. Theyâre both endangered by time. So it just became very interesting and for us, as much as she a romantic interest she is a mentor for him because sheâs kind of got a better sense of whatâs real and fake while his whole sense of real and fake is he kind of ignores it.
Can you tell about the casting of Marissa for this role?
Darren: Well, you know I think sheâs always talented. Often underused. Brings a lot of complexity. I thought it would be a very surprise performance from her because sheâs often veryâ¦. sheâs cast as being very sweet. And I liked the fact that she played against it, you know?
If I could bring us back to Randyâs place in the hierarchy, where heâs obviously not supposed to be to top superstar. Itâs a lot of parallel to the character of Jake the Snake Roberts, who I donât know if you or Rob Siegel went back to the documentary âBeyond the Matâ because Jake and Randyâs stories parallel greatly, especially the daughter angle, the recreational drug use, although Jakeâs was a little more serious than that. Did you go back into that to look into that? Did you draw from that?
Darren: Well, we were working on the film for a long time before that came out and when that documentary came out we were a little concerned because we saw the parallels, but then again I was relieved because it meant that a lot of people would see that documentary and would be introduced to that world so it wouldnât be so alien. Unfortunately a lot of these old-timers that we met, a lot of these legends, Jake the Snakeâs story isnât very original. There are many, many guys out there with the same story so itâs almost a cliché, you know? They work 350 days a year and by the time, as I said, their bodies are done their home lives are destroyed. Then theyâre just sort of driving on fumes, you know? For me, Rowdy Roddy Piper came to a screening the other night and he was the first legend to see it and he said itâs not my story but it is my story. And so I think a lot of legends are going to relate to it.
Heâs seen the story over and over again.
Darren: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
One of the things about your filmography is your jumping from genre to genre. I wanted to know if you could talk about what interests you aboutâ¦
Darren: I didnât know I did any genre films. What would be a genre?
Sci-fi?
Darren: âThe Fountainâ is sci-fi? Is it really?
Well, I could make it sci-fi, but what Iâm mostly curious aboutâ¦I wanted to also just talk about the fact that your next scheduled to do a big sci-fi movie for MGM.
Darren: I donât know what youâre talking about.
Yeah, I donât know either, but according to the always accurate IMDB.
Darren: No, no. I never heard about that.
You do switch a lot between big budget and low budget films, so can you talk about the challenges of both and was it a relief after the long slog of The Fountain?
Darren: Well it wasnât for me a long slog. âThe Fountainâ --every minute of the 6 years I worked on it was filled was excitement. (Laughter) and it was. It was a long trek and itâs all part of the journey to make a film and it was what was necessary to get the film made. But, you know, this one was exciting because it was all about actors and thatâs something that Iâve always loved doing is working with actors. And you get to do so little as a director that when I started thatâs all I really was interested in was just unleashing Mickey and Evan onto cellulite and see what would happen.
As a quick follow-up, is there a big budget film coming next? Will you be rebounding?
Darren: I have got no idea whatâs next. I donât have a script yet so Iâm waiting. Thatâs the first step.
Then Iâll ask you, what can fans look forward to of this film on DVD/Blu-ray?
Darren: Well, the guy who made the documentary on âThe Fountainâ, which was a really good documentary, which is on the DVD did one on âThe Wrestlerâ. And he really outdid himself. Itâs a great documentary. I just saw the first cut yesterday and itâs fantastic. Thereâs some really cool stuff. Some nice bloody wrestling extras.
Are there deleted scenes?
Darren: I donât think Iâm going to do deleted scenes. Although in the documentary thereâs a lot of deleted stuff. The guy who directed it asked for it so I gave him a lot of the really cool shots we werenât able to use. In fact, I just remembered one Iâve got to tell him to use. Sorry. Iâve been meaning to tell him forever, sorry.
While youâre writing that down, I wanted to know whatâs your thought as a filmmaker in future projects regarding 3-D and IMAX?
Darren: I think itâs great and I think all these new technologies are great to try and draw people in, but I think the bottom line it comes down to stories. And youâve got to hook them with stories because theyâve been trying to put 3-D into the world forâ¦I remember when I wasâin the 80âs I donât actually remember the year, but they put out a bunch of 3-D movies and you go and you see one of them and if the film sucks itâs just a gimmick, you know, and you can only do that much type of stuff reaching out in front of you before itâs flat. So itâs all about the stories. So youâve got to figure out interesting things to tell them. 3-D and how that technology works and interesting things. I mean this film in IMAX would be no better. It really wouldnât. It would be impossible to shoot really because of the size of those cameras, so youâve just got to find the right medium for the right story and ultimately hopefully those mediums will be used for good stories. Letâs justâ¦Do you guys have any questions because I sort of got a signal.
I was just curious in all this research that you do on wrestling and the wrestlers was there something in particular that really surprised you that you werenât expecting to learn?
Darren: Oh yeah. The complexity of the brotherhood and sisterhoodâbecause thereâs a lot of sisters in itâwas really not just the fraternity that they were all friends and all of that stuffânot friends but they all kind of respected each other but itâs a real craft. They have a whole language of moves and thereâs a whole history of it. They speak their own language which kind of I think of comes out ofâ¦he might be able to tell us more⦠I think the whole history comes out of carnivals and I think they probably have come fight the Strong
I was just going to ask how you feel about Mickeyâs personal journey because heâs come through a lot to actually have this comeback opportunity and heâs getting a lot of talk about awards.
Darren: Yeah, yeah. Iâm psyched for him and Iâm more excited as a fan because Iâm really curious to see how other directors use him, so itâs great. Thank you guys. See you later, bye-bye.