From creators/showrunners Lucia Aniello, Paul W. Downs and Jen Statsky, the second season of the HBO Max original comedy series Hacks follows legendary Las Vegas comedian Deborah Vance (Jean Smart) on the road and traveling across the country with talented but disgruntled writer Ava (Hannah Einbinder). As they workshop a new stand-up act, they quickly learn what works and what doesn’t, both on stage and in their own collaborative relationship.
During this interview with Collider, Downs (who plays Jimmy, manager for both Deborah and Ava) and Meg Stalter (who plays Kayla, Jimmy’s hilariously inappropriate assistant) talked about finding the Jimmy/Kayla dynamic, what makes Kayla such a special character, how each is exactly what the other needs, that the success of the show has been really gratifying, why casting Smart as Deborah Vance was kismet, and how they know the way they’d like the series to end, if they get to continue making it.
Collider: I had no idea how badly I needed this weird duo of Jimmy and Kayla in my life, until you guys gifted me with them, so thank you for that.
PAUL W. DOWNS: Thank you. Thank you for needing us. We are a weird duo.
MEG STALTER: We’re freaky and silly.
Paul, how did you know that Jimmy needed Kayla, and how much of Kayla was what you guys created compared to what Meg Statler brought to the role? It’s the best, but it’s also crazy.
DOWNS: We love and it’s a really classic thing to have a duo like this, from Abbott and Costello. Having the straight man character duo was something that we wanted to have as part of the show, and we were so enamored of Meg. We loved her, just from what she did online, so we wrote the character with her in mind. And then, Meg and I both were on the same standup show, before we had actually started casting the role. We did have people read for it, even though we were such huge fans of hers, and when I saw Meg, I came back and talked to Jen [Statsky] and Lucia [Aniello]. I was like, “I know we say, ‘Think Meg Stalter,’ when we’re writing this part, but it must be her. We should still audition people and give everyone a chance.” She’s so funny, she’s so dynamic, and she’s so electric. Especially this season, you get to see her also be so poignant and have more emotional, grounded moments. She is the character, but she’s also a lot more sane. Kayla’s a lot weirder, wilder fashion. Maybe Meg is just as fashion as Kayla.
STALTER: She’s definitely more fashion than me. I think she really can put an outfit together on a dime. And she has a way bigger closet, I feel, and a lot more designer. But I was just such a big fan of Paul. I freaked out when I saw the script. It was the first time that I saw something where I was like, “I have to do anything I can to get this part.” It felt so perfect and like something that I was so excited to do. The script made me laugh so hard. When I met Paul, I was nervous because I’m such a fan, but then we immediately clicked. I talked to him that whole night, like it was just meant to be.
Meg, did this immediately feel like your character? When it came to Kayla, was she someone that you just, you immediately got? Did you just completely understand her?
STALTER: I feel like that’s why I was so excited. It felt like a character that I’ve never seen on TV, and yet I feel like I know her. It felt like a classic, “This will be perfect for me, and yet something different than I’ve ever gotten to do.” I think it’s because my favorite thing to play is someone nervous and confident, at the same time, at all times. That’s how I feel, a little bit, in real life. I really feel like I’m special and feel really delusionally confident. I can do anything on stage. I can be on stage for two hours and improv, but I get nervous when I order coffee. That’s how and who I am, and that’s what I think Kayla is, when you get down to it.
Why do you think really being the absolute worst for Jimmy still makes Kayla the absolute best for him?
STALTER: That’s really interesting.
DOWNS: That’s a great question. We have not been asked that question.
STALTER: Yeah.
DOWNS: I think Jimmy is really tightly wound. Jimmy really wants to make a name for himself and prove that he can be a good manager, despite the nepotism that exists because he’s the son of one of the founders. Having someone like Kayla, who is such a free spirit, so authentically herself, and so unedited, I think is really good for Jimmy. Jimmy does need to loosen up a little bit, in the same way that Kayla needs to button up a bit. It’s interesting, it’s like Deborah and Ava, in that they are this star-crossed duo that make each other better, even though they absolutely drive each other insane. Jimmy, obviously, is frustrated by Kayla, left and right, but he drives Kayla nuts too.
STALTER: They both want the other person to be something they’re not, but then, in reality, what they are is exactly what they need. That’s what it’s like, in life sometimes. You don’t always get what you want, but you get what you need, and that’s what they are. They came from the same place, and yet they’re so different. They’re total opposites, but they go together. They need each other, and they don’t even realize that. By pushing the other one to be different, they realize that they love each other. Kayla loves Jimmy for who he is, and I think Jimmy secretly really cares for Kayla.
Meg, do you feel like Kayla knows she annoys Jimmy and leans into that some, or do you feel like she genuinely thinks she’s helping, even if she’s not?
STALTER: When he’s teasing, she’s like, “Well, he’s being flirty today.” I think she sees herself in the best light, at all times. She just thinks she’s the life of the party, and how could anyone be annoyed by her? If they’re arguing, she thinks, “Well, we’re so close, we just do that.” I don’t think she takes it personally. I think she deeply wants him to be like, “You’re my best friend and I love you,” but I don’t think she’s ever sees her actions as being problematic or annoying.
DOWNS: She’s very like, “We’re having a lover’s quarrel.” And he’s like, “But we’re not lovers.”
STALTER: She sees them as equals. She thinks they’re just peers who are flirty and who like to hang out.
DOWNS: We’re like an old married couple. She’s like, “Intimacy is conflict. If you have conflict, that means you’re close.”
STALTER: No one knows Jimmy better than Kayla.
DOWNS: And all he wants is her to get his lunch order right.
Paul, you can make a great show, but that doesn’t mean anyone will tune in, and a bad show can be wildly successful. How did you realize that this show was as successful as it is and that it was connecting with people the way that it was? What was it like to realize that it was even more than you could have hoped?
DOWNS: Yeah, you’re absolutely right that you never know, even if you love a show. That’s the thing, we love the show. We wanted to watch the show, which is why we made the show. We thought of the idea seven years ago and Jen, Lucia, and I have talked about it ever since because we cared about this story, and telling the story of people like Deborah Vance, but you never know if it’s gonna cut through. I don’t know if there was a moment that we knew it, but we started to feel like people were connecting with it. Honestly, one of the things was that there were some transpo guys, who drive the vans and who are tried and true crew members, and we thought they weren’t really gonna respond to this show. But when Ava brings the phone, and she goes to the wax museum, they were like, “That’s so fucking funny.” And people come up to us and go, “This is the only show I can watch with my husband,” or “This is the show that I can actually watch with my parents, and we all like it.” It’s really cool that people are watching the show, regardless of how old they are and what they think they might like. It appealed to a lot of people, which made us feel very connected. We made it because comedy is really important to us and comedy is the thing that made us feel connected to other people and each other. To have other people then connect to the show is really gratifying.
It also feels like this is Jean Smart’s universe, and we’re all just lucky enough to live in it. What’s it like to then have someone like her come in and bring all of what was in your head, and what came out of conversations to life?
DOWNS: Because we thought of the show so long ago and had made this character an amalgamation of a lot of different, not only standup comedians, but show biz veterans, we had a really distinct image of it and that’s something that you’re really protective of. But when Jean agreed to do the show, and then when we had our first screen test, hearing her do the part off the page because it wasn’t like she had memorized the lines – she was just reading it – we were like, “This is gonna be better than we ever imagined because she is so exactly right for it.” Weirdly, it was kismet because she had said to us, when we met with her, “You know, I always wanted to be a standup. I dressed up as Phyllis Diller for Halloween. In an alternate timeline, I wish that was what I had done.” It was so weirdly kismet. You can tell, when she does it, that she was perfect for the role. Also, she is somebody who can do hard comedy and be a believable cynic, but also do those grounded, poignant moments. We really wanted the show to be grounded and have a lot of heart, and she’s so uniquely equipped to do all those things. And it’s something that you do get to see with Jimmy and Kayla more, this season. There are moments that are a lot more grounded, which is really fun.
Meg, is there anything too outrageous for Kayla to say or do? Since she doesn’t even seem to understand that there is a line that maybe you shouldn’t always cross, is there anything that would be a step too far for her?
STALTER: I don’t think she’d ever wanna really hurt anyone’s feelings. She would never wanna actually hurt Jimmy. We see her, in Season 1, where she’s so upset that she messed up because she hates to upset him. I think she would have sex at the office. I think she would fully have a date at the office. I don’t think there’s any boundaries, in that sense. But I think she really does have a good heart.
DOWNS: She means well.
STALTER: I don’t think she fears losing her job, but she wouldn’t wanna hurt Jimmy. She would have sex in his office. I’m sure she’d have an orgy. She’d throw a party in her dad’s office.
DOWNS: Okay, that will be in Season 3. That’s pretty good. There are some big turns that really change and bring Jimmy and Kayla’s relationship to the next level this season. I’m not gonna spoil it, but the last two episodes are big for Jimmy and Kayla, as a duo.
Paul, how far ahead have you thought about this? How many seasons have you thought about? Do you have a good idea of what Season 3 would be?
DOWNS: We’ve thought through Season 12. No, I’m only kidding. Because we thought of it a while ago, when we pitched the show, we did have an idea of what the series arc would be and how the series would end, but of course, that always changes. You never know what’s gonna happen, in terms of how long a show will last, so we try to just think about it, day to day, and not really plan too much. We have our dream scenario of where it would end, but we’ll see. Sometimes that gets to happen, and sometimes it doesn’t.
You just never know.
DOWNS: You never know if you’ll get another season, or you’ll get the seasons that you were planning for, or if things will change because, as you’re writing for an actor, you wanna see them do something else or you wanna follow another part of the story that you never expected to be so dynamic when we shot it. We’re always evolving it. From the pitching process, to the scripting process, to when we’re shooting and things change on set, to the editing process and the things that we end up using or not using. It’s constantly evolving, and we’re constantly trying to add jokes and layers, and texture to the show. It’s a living, breathing thing. It’s like a baby. It’s like raising a child. You wanted that child to be a lawyer or a doctor, or whatever, but that kid is really good at basketball, so you get them into basketball camp and hope that they can join the WNBA, or whatever.
Hacks is available to stream at HBO Max.