[Editor’s note: The following contains spoilers through Episode 4 of Heels, "Cutting Promos."]
From creator/executive producer Michael Waldron (Loki creator and head writer), the Starz drama series Heels follows brothers and small-town pro wrestling rivals Jack Spade (Stephen Amell) and Ace Spade (Alexander Ludwig). In the ring, there are very clearly defined roles of the good guy, also known as the face, and the bad guy, or the heel, but as the two battle over their late father’s legacy, they realize that the lines are far more blurry in their own lives.
During this virtual interview with Collider, which you can both watch and read, co-stars Mary McCormack (who plays Willie Day, the managing producer of the Duffy Wrestling League) and Chris Bauer (who plays Wild Bill Hancock, Willie’s former boyfriend and a former DWL wrestling star who’s now a professional scout) talked about what the world of wrestling means to their characters, how Wild Bill represents the Ghost of Christmas Future for Jack and Ace, what they enjoy about their wardrobe, shooting Wild Bill’s wildly memorable moment, and why they don’t like to know too much about the future for their characters.
Collider: First of all, thank you for making a show about wrestling that even I, as someone who only knows the basics, can enjoy. I very much appreciate that. I am also fully of the belief that genre doesn’t matter, if you tell a great story with great characters in a full world, and I feel like this show really proves that. Mary, how does Willie fit into this world? What does wrestling mean to her and what does being a part of this whole world mean to her?
MARY McCORMACK: I think it means everything to her. She probably would have been a wrestler, if she’d been born a little later. I think she’s obsessed with it, in a similar way. I think she and Wild Bill are cut from the same cloth. They just went in different directions. She was his valet, and now she finds herself in this job because it’s the closest she can get to being there all the time and wrestling herself.
Chris, how did you approach this character and how you wanted to embody him? What did you use to gauge for how big he goes in any scene, and is there too big for someone like him?
CHRIS BAUER: I think there is too big for someone like him. If he accidentally falls off a building, that would be too big. But I approached it from the point of view that I do everything, which is that we are the advocates for a fictional proxy of a real person. Obviously, wrestling is a real world that people live and die for, both as fans and as wrestlers and participants. I just wanted to make sure I could do it real. I wanted to make sure that I could honor the commitment, the sacrifice, the study, the training, the showmanship, and the risk. They wrote it for me, luckily, so that I could check all of those boxes. And then, the nuts and bolts stuff, we trained, at the end of the day, for almost a year, physically, and learned how to wrestle. I wouldn’t say we learned how to wrestle. We learned how to look like we can wrestle until the double comes in. That’s a very important distinction. I watched a lot, I attended a lot, and I tried to soak it all up like a sponge. The muse squeezes you, and whatever comes out is what’s supposed to be there.
Does it feel like Wild Bill is the mirror that’s being held up to Jack and Ace, especially at this point in their lives?
BAUER: Yeah. In some ways, narratively, he is the Ghost of Christmas Future and it’s up to the, if that’s where they wanna end up or not. But what’s so fun, simultaneously, Wild Bill is in his own moment of crisis. He still has enough in the tank to make different choices himself. I think that his compulsion to want to reconnect with Willie is some instinct for survival. Whether or not he knows how to put that into words or live in a way that would endear her to him again, I don’t know, but he’s definitely grasping for straws because he’s drunk.
Mary, as one of the cast members who came to this without having previously been a fan of wrestling, what has most surprised you about the intricacies of the art forum? In what ways does it appeal to you, now that you’re more familiar with it?
McCORMACK: I was shocked and impressed with how athletic these folks are. I just had no idea that they were that level of athletes, so I have a lot of respect for that. That’s one thing. There are so many things, but that’s the first thing that comes to mind. I really was like, “How stupid was I not to know?”
How much fun is it to get into these looks for your characters and to really use that to embody them? Was there a process for finding their wardrobe and how that would be reflected in who they are?
McCORMACK: It was probably a different process for Chris than for me. Chris is married to our brilliant costume designer, Laura Bauer, who is incredible. You can tell from Chris’ outfits that his process was maybe different. I will say that when Laura would give me something to put on, I’d be like, “No, I don’t think that’s right,” and then I would put it on and be like, “Oh, this makes me wanna have a cigarette and ride a bike.” She saw her before I saw, which is the mark of a really great designer.
BAUER: Yeah, she’s amazing. It’s completely coincidental that I married her. She’s amazing. She created these looks. She used to go with me to wrestling, so this was not a world that she was Googling to find out what people look like. She also understands character, almost before the actor does, like Mary was describing. You can’t believe how much work that does for you. We also had the support of the network. They let us look sort of outrageous. We got a lot of support like that on this sho and I think it makes a huge difference. We could have blown it.
Chris, what was it like to find yourself in a scene where you’re wearing only a light-up wrestling belt and a cowboy hat and boots? Could you ever have imagined that that’s where you would go?
McCORMACK: I think he did imagine it.
BAUER: That’s when I felt the most like Rick Flair. I loved shooting that. Occasionally, I’d catch a glimpse of myself and I hated shooting that. What are you gonna do, go halfway? We’re telling a story and my character was a super famous heel in the big show, for the equivalent of the WWE. He has no problem with that. Plus, he’s got a lifestyle, which I borrowed from many wrestlers in real life, where it made it very easy to end up in the situation that he was in, and that’s not uncommon for wrestlers. That was great. I loved shooting that, and I would do it again.
Mary, what was it like to do the scene where you really just get to kick Chris’ ass? It seemed like that was a long time coming.
McCORMACK: Yeah. I feel bad because I think I hurt him a couple of times.
BAUER: I’ve taken my neck brace off for the interview.
McCORMACK: I’m strong and look at my hands. Poor Chris Bauer. I have massive hands. There’s no explanation. No. It was fun. That’s a great scene. Even before the hitting began, it’s a great scene. It’s a nice piece of writing. It’s like a little one-act play. I loved that scene.
Have you guys thought about what the bigger story arcs for the show and these characters are? Have you had those conversations about where they go, beyond the first season, or are you trying not to think that far ahead?
BAUER: I don’t, and I have a feeling Mary might have a similar way through. I don’t like to know what’s gonna happen. I don’t like to know what’s gonna happen beyond one script. I’ve done other shows where I started the season thinking one thing and it wasn’t until the last script that I find out I march to my death, and it makes a huge difference. For me, personally, I’m such a perfectionist and results-distracted person, that if there’s a target that I’m supposed to hit, it will immediately start to degrade what I’m doing in the moment. I have no idea, which generally matches my daily state of being, so it works.
McCORMACK: Yeah, I like that part about television also. I think some actors really don’t like that. Like a play or a movie, they really wanna be able to pace out everything, and I don’t wanna know that. It makes it more fun.
It just seems like these are very unpredictable characters in an unpredictable world, which is the fun of it, so you wouldn’t want to know where they might go next.
McCORMACK: Yeah.
BAUER: Yeah.
McCORMACK: It makes it an easier job because you just have to be truthful in the moment. I don’t want more on my plate. I just want that on my plate.
BAUER: Yeah, same.
Mary, how do you view Willie’s relationship with Jack versus Ace? Are we going to see that become very different, throughout the season?
McCORMACK: Yeah. I think you do see some changes in her relationship with Jack, throughout the season, that revolve around Bill. Bill is the thing that, when he comes back, that’s the catalyst for changing everything. All of the relationships are set, and then you involve him and everything’s just a little bit off. My loyalty is still to Jack. We’re business partners. Ace’s ego is even bigger, but Jack’s ego is also big. But even my relationship with Jack, when Bill enters the scene, it’s a little off. Bill changes everything.
Heels airs on Sunday nights on Starz.