[Editor’s note: The following contains spoilers for After Ever Happy.]

The fourth film of the After franchise, After Ever Happy, finds Tessa (Josephine Langford) and Hardin (Hero Fiennes Tiffin) at a real turning point in their relationship, realizing that they need to work on themselves before figuring out their future as a couple. Neither of them are who they were when they first met, and while they both love each other, that just might not be enough.

During this 1-on-1 interview with Collider, Fiennes Tiffin talked about how this installment in the franchise feels the most mature, why it’s important for Hardin to sort his issues out on his own, actually learning from his mistakes, how he felt about the way the film ends, what leading this franchise with Langford has taught him, whether he’d like to produce and direct in the future, and what he took home with him from the set.

Collider: It’s been so interesting to talk to you throughout this whole process, for each of these films. We’ve previously talked about how the first movie was really about trouble with their exes, the second movie was trouble with their mothers, the third movie was trouble with their fathers, and now this one is them having to figure out everything and what that means for them, going forward. Did this installment feel the most mature to you, especially when it came to the characters and how they really had to look inside themselves to figure out what they really want?

HERO FIENNES TIFFIN: It definitely did. I think you hit the nail on the head there. Also, just the fact that they now are going through the same things that they’ve gone through before, but in a much more mature, later stage in life. In college, the only worries were their exes and getting to their lectures on time. Now, they’re in the real world, and they’re trying to juggle family issues. I feel like, when you get older, you get passed the torch, and you need to start looking after your parents, as opposed to them looking after you. He’s expected to hold down a job while maintaining a very turbulent relationship. It does definitely feel like a more mature set up for the same fun stuff that we always get into.

This felt like the movie where they were forced to get their own shit together, before they could fix their relationship.

FIENNES TIFFIN: I completely agree, and I hope the fans see that, too. I feel like it’s just really important to have that element of needing a break and needing to work on themselves to really make the relationship work.

Did it also feel like it really took Hardin being broken to realize that he actually needed to start to build up himself and not just focus on another person?

FIENNES TIFFIN: Definitely. You see the importance of how helpful Tessa has been to Hardin, in terms of him seeing a light at the end of the tunnel and being motivated to be a better version of himself. But at the same time, it’s not fair on another person to bring any less than 100% of yourself to a relationship. There are times when one will help the other more, and that can go back and forth a fair bit. But when it’s so heavily one-sided, as it is between Tessa and Hardin, there comes a point when Hardin really needs to sort his own stuff out, on his own accord, and not make it Tessa’s problem.

Tessa’s journey throughout these films has really been apparent because, as the audience, we can see how much she has changed from who she was in the first film. Hardin has been repeating a lot of the same behaviors, but by the end of this film, he’s genuinely changed too. How would you say he is most changed, by the end of this? What do you feel he’s really learned about himself, from his experience with Tessa?

FIENNES TIFFIN: It’s not setting the bar so high for himself. It’s not just about being granted forgiveness by other people and how you’ve done them wrong, but being able to truly forgive yourself. You can’t live your whole life hating yourself because of things that have happened in the past that were out of your control, but also things that you have done that were in your control. Eventually, there comes a point where you do need to forgive yourself and move on. It’s also quite a realistic representation of how relationships often go. One person grows up and moves on, and the other person is struggling to do so. That’s often where the relationship really gets tested most.

We learn in this film that Hardin has been writing his feelings down and turning all of that into a book, all this time. How did you feel about the fact that he did that, and how Tessa feels about how he decided to go ahead with that, even though she didn’t want him to? Why do you think that was something that was so important to him?

FIENNES TIFFIN: He says it in the film with, “What’s the point in everything we’ve gone through? We’ve got to channel it into something that helps people.” I agree with that so much. It’s almost the ultimate form of forgiveness, turning the bad things you’ve done into good things, and helping other people. That coincides with people who ask about After being a representation of a toxic relationship. You don’t have to copy [that behavior]. You can learn from the mistakes. It’s not about copying exactly what they do. You have to realize what went wrong and make sure you don’t do the same things. But that whole scene where she finds out was a tough scene to really get right because there are so many elements to it. I wish he could have just told her sooner. He was so close, but maybe he was waiting for the right time. Maybe he booked a dinner and the reservation was canceled, and then it just wasn’t the right time to tell her. It’s like Romeo and Juliet, where it’s about the timing. The timing is so unfortunate. There were so many moving parts to that. I definitely would agree that, at the end of the day, it makes sense, if he’s written it as a journal, that he wants to keep it private and personal. But then, once he goes to publishers, that’s the moment that he needed to tell her that he was going to be sharing what is half of her and the truth of her own story. You can’t just go and publish that without telling that person, but that’s what he went and did. You can only really try to justify it by really believing that he wanted to. And I truly do believe that he wanted to tell her, in the right way, but he was scared and it was difficult. You can imagine that being a difficult thing to do, but again, the timing is what messed them up there.

That’s why I found the end of the film so interesting, with Hardin at his book reading and him not running after Tessa when she leaves. What do you think it took for him to get to a place, probably for the first time, where he didn’t just chase after her?

FIENNES TIFFIN: I think that shows a lot about how far he’s come, whether it’s fair to her to do that or not. If she’s come, and she wanted to leave, maybe he’s finally realized that she needs to come back on her own accord. I think it does say a lot. I think it shows how far he’s come I don’t think he ever wants to live life without her, if it was up to him, but I think he respects her enough. It’s loving someone enough to let them go, if they want to, and let them choose to come back when they want to come back. He’s leaving the ball in her court, which for the first time, does feel fair.

How did you feel about the end of the film? When you read that script for the first time, what was your reaction?

FIENNES TIFFIN: It was definitely controversial and very unexpected. This is definitely an opportunity to hide behind the producers and everyone else and go, “I’m just an actor. I turn up and say the lines.” It’s tough when you’re four movies deep, and you’re so much more invested than you are in most movies, but ultimately the decision is what it is. I don’t absolutely hate it because I love the idea of different people being entitled to different opinions and having those conversations. That’s the beauty of After, and so many other TV shows, films, and franchises. There’s so much complexity that you really do leave room for fans to say, “No, this must have happened,” or “No, that should have happened.” I think that’s part of the beauty of it. That’s what brought so many people together, who have been fans of After. Real life is not black and white, good and bad. There’s room for interpretation.

Did you ever have a conversation with the director where you said, “Are we sure we want to go with this ending? Are we sure we shouldn’t change it?” Were there conversations about it, or was this always the ending of the film?

FIENNES TIFFIN: Not so much about that, but more so constantly through every scene, I was like, “He seems like too much of a dick here. We need to dial it back.” We’re constantly dealing with the push and pull of, “Oh, he’s so toxic. Why should she take him back?” But then, you also get some people who are like, “Why is it so different from the books?” If you look into the books, he’s a lot worse. So, trying to make everyone happy and find a middle ground, it’s a constant push and pull and battle of us trying to find a happy medium.

In this film, Hardin deals with his emotions by screaming, on more than one occasion. As an actor, how do you prepare for doing that? It seems like, on one hand, it would be cathartic to have a moment like that, where you could just scream into the air, but on the other hand, you have to do more than one take and don’t want to lose your voice. How do you handle something like that?

FIENNES TIFFIN: If you’re working with a smart director, which we’ve always been lucky to do, you can really identify which camera setup you want to use for the screen and a decisive director will be able to say, “It’s definitely gonna be this shot.” In every other take, we’ll be about to scream, and then stop, so that you can still do all the dialogue before that happens. But it is definitely cathartic and enjoyable. I’m gonna miss punching walls, throwing Landon around, and screaming at the top of my voice. I’ve really, really enjoyed playing grumpy, stroppy, fuck-the-world Hardin. I’m gonna miss that. I think it’s maybe even rubbed off on me a little bit. No. It’s been fun.

There are two striking moments in this, that Hardin has with the mothers. There’s the scene with him and Tessa’s mother, and the scene with his own mother, where he really gets to a place where he can finally reconcile with her. What was it like to shoot each of those scenes and to have those women to work with?

FIENNES TIFFIN: Those scenes were so necessary and vital. I think all of the bits about Tessa and her family are only fair to have, so I’m glad we got that in there. And working with Louise [Lombard], who plays Trish, we’ve gotten so close over the years. I’ve met her kids, and she is so loved. She’s literally like a second mom. And Steve [Moyer], who plays Vance, is like a second dad to me. They really, really are. I look up to them, not just as actors, but people. So, it’s always nice when we get a deep lengthy scene with them. I think it’s really important to the storyline too.

The relationship between Hardin and Landon has also been one of those interesting relationships to watch because Landon has genuinely tried to make a connection with Hardin. He’s tried to be a friend, and he’s even tried to save him from himself, on more than one occasion, but it just seems to not really work out for them to be friends. What did you most enjoy about that dynamic, over the films, even though you had different actors to play it with?

FIENNES TIFFIN: Yeah. Initially, you’re annoyed that any role gets recast. It’s not ideal. But at the same time, looking back, we were lucky that we’ve been able to work with so many different characters who have been recast and all of the actors have been amazing to work with. I really enjoy the dynamic between Hardin and Landon. I think it’s actually a really realistic one. It’s nice that Landon is so close with Tessa, especially in the earlier installments. It’s a really interesting dynamic, that they’re such close friends. We often have that with people in relationships, where there’s a mutual friend. That makes a lot of sense to me. And I’ve enjoyed working both Chance [Perdomo] and Shane [Paul McGhie]. I think that dynamic is great. Part of me is always like, “I wish, in a different world, if this was a TV series or something, we’d be able to explore that a lot more.” But I’m proud of all the work we’ve done. I have really enjoyed that dynamic a lot.

It must be fun, as an actor, to get to do those big blow-up scenes. Hardin and Landon even have a couple of fights.

FIENNES TIFFIN: Yeah, definitely. It’s probably fun, if you don’t like them, as well, but I was lucky. I’ve really liked all of those elements. That Hardin is such an explosive character, so I’m glad we managed to get those scenes in there. I do enjoy building those.

After doing four films, playing the same character and really digging into his emotional journey, what have you learned about yourself, as an actor? This was the first time you’d led a movie, alongside your co-star Josephine Langford, and you’ve done so for four films now. What has that taught you?

FIENNES TIFFIN: When you start making a movie, and me and Jo were both lucky that it was both our first lead roles, you feel like you can help each other. It’s not like one of you is dragging the other one uphill, and they’re steps behind. Really, you’re on the same level, which was nice. But then, also just to bring the same character back to life, four times, you really do start to feel so comfortable within the character. Not in a stubborn way, but you know best. No one else can really say, “He wouldn’t act like that,” because you’d know. You’re just so comfortable within it. I think we’re so lucky, and I’m so grateful that the fans have been so supportive that we’ve been able to make these movies. Because you asked in terms of acting, I feel like my acting skills have developed massively. I’ve become so comfortable on set and within the character, that I’m comfortable enough to have the freedom to explore and try new things, rather than just picking the most one-dimensional, straightforward way of playing a scene. You can really explore and be a bit more creative with it. And then, beyond that, just understanding how film sets work and being able to do so many press interviews, I’m probably so much better at that than I was when I started out. I understand what different lenses mean. I feel like, when you come on set, and you’re a day player, or you do a few scenes in a film, it’s hard to feel comfortable enough to explore the set and ask annoying questions because you wanna learn more. Having the ability to do that, when you’re four movies deep in a franchise, has taught me so much more than I could ever imagine.

Has it made you think about producing and directing? Do you want to get more involved behind the scenes?

FIENNES TIFFIN: Definitely. It’s a lot harder to leave things up to the director or producers. You’re biting your tongue, a lot of the time, on stuff. But then, you start to begin to have the right to be like, “No, guys, we should do it like this. How about we set the shot up like that?” I realize I’m really annoying everyone, but it does make me wanna direct and produce. I’m just so lucky that I’ve got such momentum acting now, and I’m aware that I’m so early on in my career that I definitely wanna focus on the acting for now, but in the corner of my eye, I’ve got the desire to eventually produce and direct.

Some actors who are on a long-running TV show seem to dip their toe by directing an episode because then you have the cast and crew that you’re always working with, there to really support you. Directing isn’t easy, but it seems like an easier way to step into something, when you know the people there supporting you.

FIENNES TIFFIN: Definitely. In any collaboration, or team sport, or anything where people are working together for the same end goal, if everyone is doing their job well, almost 10 out of 10, one single cog can work a little bit slower and everyone else will push them through. I would agree that an opportunity to start directing, for example, if you were on a long-running TV show and you knew your character so well and the crew so well, there is somehow less to do in certain departments, if everyone else picks up that weight for you. That’s obviously a generic statement, but I would definitely agree, that’s probably the most favorable way to start. I’ve been asking the questions and annoying every department with my intrusive looking over their shoulder. I’m just learning as I go, and eventually I will grow the courage to take on my first directing job.

How did things evolve and change with you and Josephine Langford, over this experience and as you got to know each other better throughout making the films?

FIENNES TIFFIN: People always compliment our chemistry, and we’re like, “Listen, it’s down to good casting.” We had around a week of prep before the first movie, and we felt so well looked after by all the crew, the director, and everyone. We’ve been lucky that it’s been a bit like that, off-the-bat. We’ve really worked well together and helped each other out. People say, “Hey, don’t start in this place because you need somewhere to go within the scene,” but it feels like we started with getting on really well and having really good chemistry. We left ourselves nowhere to go because it’s just been great from the start. I’m definitely going to miss working with Jo because we have a shorthand ability to really work well together, and I’ve loved every minute of it. I’ve been very lucky. She’s a really, really talented actress and a great girl.

Was there anything that you got to take from the set to commemorate the character, after playing him for so long?

FIENNES TIFFIN: Yeah, me and Jo definitely raided our respective characters’ closets. Jo might have actually taken a lot of Hardin’s stuff, as well as Tessa’s, clothing wise. But a lot of the key stuff, they take for any emergency re-shoots that they might have to do, or if they want to turn something into an auction, or whatever. They keep most of the fun stuff. We both wanted to take the BMW I8 home, but unfortunately, neither of us were able to do that. I do have the ring that Hardin wears in the very first movie. That’s my memento, which is very sentimental.

After Ever Happy is available on-demand.