How do you adapt one of the most beloved horror novels of all time? How do you terrify generations anew when a character as iconic as Pennywise the clown has been burned into the minds of audiences for decades? Such were the challenges placed at the feet of IT producer Barbara Muschietti and her creative partner (and brother) Andy Mushietti when they took over New Line's film adaptation of Stephen King's classic novel about the small town of Derry, Maine and the insidious force of evil feasting on its children.

Last year, I had the opportunity to join a small group of journalists on the set of IT in Toronto, Canada. There, we toured the sets and soundstages, observed filming, and spoke with the cast and crew. Our longest interview was with Muschietti, who was on-set consistently as the film's producer and had a whole heck of a lot of insight to offer into their approach to the material, how the project evolved from Cary Fukunaga's draft, why the R-rating is key, capturing what makes Stephen King Stephen King, changes from the book, and a lot more. Check out the full interview below.

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Image via New Line Cinema

In the books and the miniseries, the narratives of the kids and the adults but you guys aren’t doing that right?

BARBARA MUSCHIETTI: We’re not doing for a simple reason, that we didn’t think it was necessary to intertwine them. The book is our bible, for sure, but we thought it would be more interesting to respect the proper chronology, and also, it’s such a massive book. This, I have to say, we inherited it and we could have changed it but we decided not to, to stick to the kids, because I think it gives you a bigger change of really understand the characters in the first part of the movie, rather than spending half of the movie 27 years later.

There’s also that demarcation line if you’re going to do Part II. You can easily make a sequel.

MUSCHIETTI: If ever there was a book that was perfect to be divided, it was IT.

If someone was watching this movie and didn’t know that there would be adult stuff, will you at least hint at it? “To be continued…”? Not that literally, but a framing device.

MUSCHIETTI: There’s not a to be continued. There is a big ass wink in one of the final scenes.

The promise is still there, I assume, that if it comes back, they will return.

MUSCHIETTI: The blood oath, yeah.

Was there a discussion about moving the film forward three decades to the 80s?

MUSCHIETTI: Again, this is something I’m going to be very candid, when we got into the project that’s how it was and we agreed with it completely for two reasons. Try to film what you know. King writes what he knows, we try to film what we know. We grew up in the 80s. We wanted to do a very rounded 80s and not a caricaturesque 80s, and we can do that because we know the period very well. Also, I think the fears in the 50s from the book, that they’re absolutely wonderful but we wanted less tangible fears and more internal. I think part of the adaptation in the 80s is that we could do that without destroying the characters in the 50s. It’s a blank slate for fears, with winks to the 50s fears but a little less naive.

Pennywise in the book plays a lot on what the kids are thinking about. They call him a glamor, so there were a lot of pop culture references. Do you guys have 80s references?

MUSCHIETTI: He’s still very much the glamor creature, and he represents the 80s fears of these kids, which again, are a lot less iconic than the book all though there are winks to those 50s fears. But he’s still very much in that sense a shape-shifter who basically tunes into a fear and will augment it and present it to you when you least expect it.

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Image via New Line Cinema

But we shouldn’t expect crazy 80s pop culture references?

MUSCHIETTI: No. No, no, no. Not at all.

Are there references to the universal monsters?

MUSCHIETTI:  Again, there’s winks to them. Those characters are for everybody to use and there is small winks, but they’re not hero fears.

How did you balance the fact that Pennywise in his clown form has become iconic, but in the book he can take so many shapes? How did you determine how much we will see him in the iconic clown form?

MUSCHIETTI: Very much like in the book. He appears as Bob Gray in very specific moments. We see him as little as we possibly can. That’s what we tried to do. But I think everybody will get their fair share of Pennywise if that’s what they’re going to the movie for.

Talk about the casting process, how many people you auditioned, and how you settled on Bill.

MUSCHIETTI: We auditioned literally hundreds of potential Bob Grays or Pennywises and it was an amazing process. We got to audition people that don’t audition anymore and a huge gamut of talent; women, younger age, older age, we really went through the spectrum of actors.

No Tilda Swinton?

MUSCHIETTI: She wasn’t available.

[Laughs]

MUSCHIETTI: No, no I swear to god. She was not. We had a slot to shoot the movie and she wasn’t available so she didn’t even audition. But of course, we all thought about. But Bill came in and blew our socks off. Because he was doing his very own interpretation of Pennywise, very erudite — sometimes my words are a little skewed because this is not my first language, but very very familiar with the novel and with Pennywise in the novel, which for us was a huge help. Because we went in the casting process with the book in mind. We read the novel when we were teens, we saw the miniseries much later in the game, so Tim Curry’s performance is extraordinary but that is not necessarily what we link to Pennywise immediately. For us, the Pennywise is the Pennywise in the book which is quite different. I think Bill went for that and he did an amazing, amazing performance and we gave him several tests. Again, because he’s a shape shifter, we wanted to make sure that he could play in different grades, right? And he did. he’s amazing. And what’s even more amazing is that he kept the character very unpredictable, and that’s what scares us the most, when you don’t know what way he’s going to go.

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Image via New Line Cinema

You said that this version of the character was more like the book than in the mini-series. Can you be more specific about that idea?

MUSCHIETTI: Tim Curry. You see Tim Curry and you already know that he’s an evil clown. There’s never a doubt about this. This Pennywise plays with his food. He taunts them, and that is of course very amusing but very disturbing at the same time, and very scary. I would say that’s one of the main differences.

Will Poulter was attached for Cary’s version, so was that ever on the table for you guys?

MUSCHIETTI: He was on the table but there were, mostly to be completely honest, there were scheduling conflicts because he was on The Maze Runner. When we started, we started seeing people right away and the moment Bill popped up, I think we knew it was for us.

Can you talk about what you inherited from the previous team vs what you brought to the table with your vision?

MUSCHIETTI: What we inherited basically was the two-film structure; 80s and present time. I think what we brought to the table is Andy's [style] and how he faces fear and how he needs to have very emotional characters. And it’s very easy with this root material. I think those are two aspects, emotions and fear were imprinted in the script that was developed with us with Gary Dauberman, much more to our taste. And then the notion of the power of belief as a resolution, and power in unity. These guys need each other to face Pennywise and to fight him, and they’re alone, they’re losers and they never really — in our movie, there are no resolutions with the outside world, so they don’t necessarily solve the conflicts with their parents. That’s what their real lives are and continue to be, all they have is each other. That’s very much our movie.

So you didn’t use Chase Palmer’s draft at all?

MUSCHIETTI: We didn’t. That was the script we were given, and by the way, it’s a fantastic script but then again, they brought us to do our own take and with Gary Dauberman, using Cary and Chase’s script as a basis for sure, but I think we skewed it to a different place.

The film is rated R but the book is pretty gnarly and a lot of stuff happens to kids. What’s been your approach to what you can and can’t do in a movie?

MUSCHIETTI: Well, to completely honest, it’s good to know that you're starting with an R — we would have gone an R regardless just out of intensity. The MPAA is absolutely unpredictable, just like Pennywise, you don’t know.

[Laughs]

MUSCHIETTI: So you know, at least you don’t have to limit the amount of times you can say “fuck”. You just go for it. We’re not necessarily gory people.

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Image via Warner Bros. / New Line Cinema

Why not?

MUSCHIETTI: There are a lot of bloody moments, that’s for sure, but the thing is I think Andy’s a master builder and that’s where we operate better. That’s where we make the fear happen, when you’re just sitting on the edge of your seat shitting your pants rather than being splattered by guts all over.

There’s some pretty ingenious puppetry in Mama, is there any puppetry invoked in this Pennywise creation?

MUSCHIETTI: We did not use the same puppetry as in Mama, although we did work with Javier, Javier is one of our characters. We did not use the actual puppetry, but we worked with Bill physically a lot and he is amazing and his structure. Yesterday, we were working on some scenes and there’s a great choreographer involved in our production and you will see him do some amazing thing. This is a different, more active Pennywise.

You said this film does get bloody at some points, are you going more for practical effects?

MUSCHIETTI: Yes. Yes, as many as possible.

What about when you get to post? Are you going to keep them? A lot of times films say “we did all this practical” but when you get to the end it’s all covered in CGI.

MUSCHIETTI:  Oh, no.

Are you trying to keep the 80s feel?

MUSCHIETTI:  It’s not only because of the 80s, it’s how we honestly work. Like we did Mama — I disengage when I see too much CG. That's me and that’s Andy, and that’s actually New Line too. And to be candid again, the effects budget is actually tiny [laughs]. There’s always support. We use CG mostly for transitions. So when you have things that are impossible then you have to do a little CG bridge, let’s call it. But you’re probably going to see this afternoon, if you walk around, some of the blood for Beverly’s [bathroom scene]. Poor Sophia Lillis and poor doubles. We do use some stunt doubles because we’re working with kids, but it’s practical. It’s all practical.

Does Bill interact with the kids or do you keep them separate?

MUSCHIETTI:  We’ve been pretty good at keeping them separate for about two-thirds of the movie. Actually, Jackson who plays Georgie met him last week. He got upset actually because he saw him walking from afar and he wanted to run and say hello, and the mother wouldn’t let him. But the kids, I think they had their first real encounter two weeks ago, I believe, and they were all very excited to meet him. We’ve kept most of Pennywise for the last third of the movie and when we did a couple elements with him, we hid him from the kids.

Was it a tactical thing on your part? You wanted to keep them separate?

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Image via Warner Bros. / New Line Cinema

MUSCHIETTI:  Yeah. It’s always better. But these kids are Ferraris, honestly, so even if we hadn’t, they’re so good. I feel like a hack next to them because they’re really so so so good and instinctive. We got very lucky in that sense.

Was there a rehearsal process where they got to know each other?

MUSCHIETTI: There was a lot of that. Part of it rehearsal, but it was mostly trust exercises. We did about three weeks of that. Also, these kids — I don’t know what this generation of kids is called, but they are indoors a lot with video games a lot, with TV and computers and we wanted them out with bicycles and swimming in quarries and just doing kid things from the 80s so we gave them training in that because some of them were not particularly great at bicycle riding. We did a lot of this here. We brought them about three weeks early, and you can see. And they are together all the time. All the time. And their parents have been great about really allowing and promoting this, and they’re fantastic. Actually, about a week ago we had a scene and they’re all very upset and they’re crying, and we couldn’t stop them. We couldn’t stop them from the emotions, because they can feel this coming to an end and they’re terrified. Because this film has changed their lives. They’re also all between 12 and 13, and they know what’s next is very different. As in terms of them, not in the consequences of this film, they’re growing up and they can feel this is the last remnants of childhood.

That’s very much their characters too and that brings me to a story question. Essentially, their story is a right of passage. The elephant in the room when you talk about the story is the King’s decision to mark the passage into adulthood with sex. Obviously, you won’t go that direction but will we see that transition from childhood to adulthood on the screen?

MUSCHIETTI:  Well, we’re not going to see it represented. We chose not to go in that route, not because of any outside pressure, not the studio, not the other producers. I think it’s one of those choices that King made that makes King great, but I don’t think it would have made the movie great.

Yeah, you can’t really visualize that and not be weird about it. But what it represents though.

MUSCHIETTI: The passage, exactly, it’s a right of passage. Ours — it is a right of passage, but the right of passage is confronting Pennywise, their fears. For us, that’s it.

You guys were coming off a big success with Mama and you had a lot of options you were exploring, and with this, you were coming into a project with some conflict, so what assurances did New Line give you that you were going to be able to do the movie right?

MUSCHIETTI: It’s a process. It’s a not a contract you sign when you first meet saying, “We won’t give you notes and you will deliver the perfect film.” It doesn’t work like that. We knew them from before. We had a relationship before. We trusted them, they trusted us. They listened to pretty much everything we had to say. Working with Gary Dauberman was fantastic, and in that sense again, it was a huge collaboration between Andy and Gary on the script, and it was a very open process. Really New Line — our discussions with New Line were more about the budget, as always, than the actual book because I think they agreed with what we were doing and the kind of film we wanted to do.

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Image via Universal Pictures

Mama was your first feature, I'm sure daunting in its own right. This being your second, with all the expectations, can you talk about you and Andy's maturation process going into this? Was there a lot of pressure on you guys in tackling this as your second feature?

MUSCHIETTI: I don't think it was a lot of pressure tackling this because we know the material so well. It was a dream project. We actually never even dreamed… it's beyond a dream project. So in that sense I don't think there was that much pressure. The pressure came from those three years we didn't film anything because we didn't find the right project. I'm incredibly glad we waited because now we have this! When we did Mama it wasn't even in my thoughts. That's one of the problems as filmmakers: Now we're part of a community and that's what you spend so much time on. Unless you don't give a shit, then you just shoot whatever falls on your plate. That happens, and that's very valid, but we have to have a very particular connection with the material because you die while you're shooting. It's a war. You have to do it for something you love.

It's interesting in this day and age because there's a lot more serialized movies coming out. We saw things like Mortal Instruments which started shooting its sequel and then shut down, or Divergent where they cancelled the final of four films. Are there any assurances that you will get to make Part 2?

MUSCHIETTI: There's never an assurance in life. Even if there is an assurance it's not an assurance. No, there isn't an assurance but we really want to make it. New Line really wants to make it and I'm sure King would want us to make it. (laughs) I'm very hopeful that we will.

Is it contingent on the success of this movie?

MUSCHIETTI: Not necessarily. I don't think this film will not be successful to the point where we could not do the second part. It will be more or less successful, but I don't think we'll be on a place where we're on a blacklist.

Are you guys ready to hit the ground running if you get the greenlight? If you're editing and they say, "Screw it, here's your budget, let's do it." Are you guys ready to just go? Do you guys have a script?

MUSCHIETTI: Oh yeah, that's the first thing that has to come. I'm talking big words here, someone at New Line is trembling as I say these words. As soon as we have the director's cut we'll be able to start jotting down ideas.

Do you wonder what Stephen King will think in the back of your mind?

MUSCHIETTI: Of course. I can say no, but of course, I do because he's very much an idol and we're doing this film very much with him in mind.

What other parts of Stephen King do you have in mind, since you're a lifelong fan? What parts of what makes Stephen King Stephen King, because there's a lot of movies out there that don't capture that small town quality and the gore and the colloquialism of the language that he puts out there?

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Image via New Line Cinema

MUSCHIETTI: In absolute fandom, in January, in the absolute cold of winter, Andy and I went to Bangor for a couple weeks to just hang and really get a taste of Derry. It's fantastic, because everybody in Bangor has a King story and it's very satisfying. The thing we tried to capture the most was the characters, and there is not a character writer like King. That is why we are all so drawn to his books. You fall in love with the earthiness of this little town heroes. In the writing casting and directing of these kids you'll find that King's style is all over the place. I'm hoping he'll feel respected and honored.

Did you speak to him at any point?

MUSCHIETTI: We did not, and we're hoping we will.

He's tweeted about you guys!

MUSCHIETTI: He has and we're very honored by that, but I think these days he's keeping away from the film aspect of his career, which is very respectful. From everyone I've talked to about possible visits with his agents, he puts it very simply: The thing he loves the most is to write, and anything that keeps him away from sitting down at home and writing is not his favorite. And he can do whatever he wants, I mean c'mon… [laughs]

So you're saying no Stephen King cameo?

MUSCHIETTI: Not in part 1. In 2... you never know. I'd love to.

You're gonna have to address audiences who know the book or the miniseries or maybe don't know IT at all. How do you achieve a balance in the representation of the character to those three audiences?

MUSCHIETTI: I'm not thinking of that, to be honest. For ourselves and all the team we’re trying to make a great story. We work in film language so there's no secrets in the movie that are only for fans or only for people who have seen the miniseries. It's just an amazing story. Universal. It's about what happens when people live in fear, how blind they become, and what happens when seven people wake up.

Can you talk about the new costume for Pennywise, which is different from what many people probably had in mind. Was it brought out by Bill's performance? How did you guys get to that?

MUSCHIETTI: Andy's a fantastic drawer/artist. He started that process right away. We went into the first meeting with sketches already. He started the design, then we started working with other concept artists to finesse those ideas. Then Bill came onto the picture so his physiognomy helped a lot. Then our prosthetics department got involved to mimic what those concepts were. Again, I think King's descriptions of Pennywise in the book were very much in mind, his clothing.

It looks very vintage Lon Chaney.

MUSCHIETTI: Yes. We call it the ancestral clown. It's not of any particular era but you know it's not present clown. It's beyond, from above, the past and the future. It's Pennywise.

In the book, it's Bozo because that's the clown the kids know. I don't think there are any kids today who would know who that is. 

MUSCHIETTI: No. I know that's why in the miniseries it's so clearly Bozo, but also in the book, you have moments of Pennywise where you see his blue eyes and a little more childlike wonder, and that's something that we will see which the miniseries didn't represent.

Is Bill method on set? Is he super locked in?

MUSCHIETTI: He's amazing. He's not method, and that's great because when you're working with kids method is a bad idea [laughs].

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It might be hard to direct Pennywise.

MUSCHIETTI: Exactly. So no, he's truly fantastic.

Next year there's going to be a King Renaissance because you have this and The Dark Tower. Will you embrace the fact that both are coming out the same year as a kind of resurgence?

MUSCHIETTI: I hadn't thought about it, but we welcome it, and I'm sure they welcome us. We have producers in common.

So you're saying [a crossover is] possible, because Pennywise pops up in the seventh Dark Tower book! 

MUSCHIETTI: I wish that were up to me! (laughs)

Was there a predominant visual style you guys were going with?

MUSCHIETTI: It's very hard to describe what you'll see today. When you see the cistern set… we have an amazing production designer named Claude Paré and he's basically built Andy's dream to a T. It's incredible we were able to do it with the budget we had. The style, I don't know how to describe it. You'll see it and you'll put words to it, how about that?

Curious what you guys thought about Stranger Things being such a huge hit, which seems like perfect timing for this because 80's nostalgia is so cool… You have one of the kids! That can't hurt either.

MUSCHIETTI: Well I think it's great to have a piece of material that honors King so much, basically. About similarities or nonsimilarities I don't necessarily see them. I loved Stranger Things but I don't think it…

Your time is more 80's grounded, because Stranger Things and all those goonie movies are dreamlike suburban 80's of Spielberg and Dante. 

MUSCHIETTI: I would say so. I would say our 80s is more grounded. There's tiny elements in common, but you won't see the dreamlike Spielberg, Dante, Super 8. It's grounded 80s, and this will sound a little naïve but we are not American, we are Argentinian. Our 80s are a little more toned down, not as exacerbated. We don't have great memories of the 80s in the U.S. because we were not here! Again, I think we worked a lot in giving it realism and being grounded.

So it's not nostalgic.

MUSCHIETTI: It's not nostalgic. It's Derry.

Are you gonna have a rockin' 80s soundtrack though?

MUSCHIETTI: There may be a song or two but it's not going to be a greatest hits. I'm not interested in that and I don't think Andy is so we'll fight that if we can.

Can you talk about what kind of score you're looking for if it's not going to be a needledrop kind of 80's movie. Is it gonna be atmospheric or a bigger score?

MUSCHIETTI: Whenever you have Pennywise the sound has to be very rarified. There are many emotional moments between the kids. That was a huge process of looking for a composer who could go from one side to another and make them work together. It's not gonna be an 80-piece orchestra. We love things that get under your skin and really make your skin crawl. That is very necessary for this film.

Have you talked about the branding of the film when it comes out? Are you gonna present it to the public as IT or is it "IT Part 1." Do you want it to be out there as its own self-contained movie or do you want people to know this is the first of two?

MUSCHIETTI: I think it's a self-contained movie. When we finish our movie you will understand that this will probably go in but I don't think it should be marketed as "Part 1."

In the nightmare scenario where there isn't a part 2 would it still work as its own thing?

MUSCHIETTI: Oh of course. Absolutely.

How did you guys approach making it a self-contained entity when it is the first-half of a larger story?

MUSCHIETTI: Well it's very easy because in the book you're obviously going back-and-forth, but if you clearly separate the storylines they're quite contained. It's difficult to realize when you go back-and-forth but their childhoods are perfectly portrayed in the book. They are full characters.

What kind of villain is Pennywise? Is he charming? Is he hidden? Is he someone that audiences are going to gravitate towards more than the children themselves?

MUSCHIETTI: He's all of the above. He's evil. Pennywise is definitely evil, and the incarnation of the worst of people's fears. Contrary to "Mama" who was an animal who wanted to protect, very crookedly.

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Image via New Line Cinema

Like most mothers.

MUSCHIETTI: Exactly, including mine [laughs]. But I think Pennywise is very much the opposite.  I think that's why he exists to represent fear, so any of the qualities you just described he will use. That is his purpose.

Are we going to learn about Pennywise's past?

MUSCHIETTI: Not in this movie we're not. In the next movie…

So we don't see a glimpse of what's behind the clown in this one?

MUSCHIETTI: No.

In the book, they have all these past incidents, 'cause this has been going on in Derry forever. Are you going back to some of that stuff?

MUSCHIETTI: In the second movie.

I think I read the draft that Cary did where they were able to incorporate the Black Spot. 

MUSCHIETTI: They were able to but they were not able to incorporate it into the budget. Just like we weren't able to, but it's going on the second.

There's a lot of stuff that will happen in the second movie that's not being approached in the first film. Are these films being approached in different ways? Like one is more coming of age and the other horror?

MUSCHIETTI: Not necessarily, but that sequence with the Black Spot, we think it's gonna be a great opening for the next film.

Will it change the character of Pennywise to not see him as this historical force of evil that has persisted?

MUSCHIETTI: No, that you feel. We're not going to do a whole sequence on that, but you are going to feel it because some of the manifestations of the fear are represented by the historical elements.

Why do you think people are so afraid of clowns?

MUSCHIETTI: A big part of it is this book, and that there was a miniseries about it that happened to shoot in a time when there were less channels and so many people saw it. We were talking with other journalists the other day from the international press and they were saying clowns weren't seen as scary in other parts of the world, they're more pathetic. In the U.S. they're terrifying and they're being made even more terrifying by a couple of loonies who are wandering the forest. We had nothing to do with that and I hope that ends soon because it's freaking me out [laughs].

Be sure to check out the brand-spankin-new IT trailer and for more of our coverage from the IT set visit, check out the links below and stay tuned for the full interviews:

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Image via New Line Cinema
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Image via Warner Bros. / New Line Cinema
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Image via New Line Cinema