With director Lynne Ramsay’s fantastic new movie, You Were Never Really Here, now playing in New York and Los Angeles, last week I did something incredibly cool: I got to sit down with Joaquin Phoenix for an hourlong exclusive interview. Unlike most interviews where the person promoting the film sits in a hotel room for hours and reporters shuffle in and out every ten to fifteen minutes, what was so unusual and cool about this conversation is that I met up with him at a local Los Angeles hotel and we sat outside by the pool and talked without any publicists or other people around. As a huge fan of his work, getting to have an intimate conversation with Phoenix was an experience I’ll never forget and I’ll always be grateful to everyone that made this happen.

Since the interview covered so many subjects I’ve decided to break it into two parts. In the first part, Phoenix talked about how he got involved in You Were Never Really Here, the unusual way he got into acting, if he’s interested in directing a feature, his thoughts on film versus digital filmmaking, how and why he went vegan, how he collected comics as a kid, and more.

In today’s installment, Phoenix talks about if he has any regrets over the roles he’s turned down, director Todd Phillips, if he might play the Joker, why the comic book movie genre is great for different interpretations of a character, his collaborations with Paul Thomas Anderson and if there are any plans to work together in the near future, how often he reads scripts, how he’s willing to leave a movie if he’s not enjoying the experience, how he recently started a vegetable garden, and a lot more.

Check out what he had to say below and if you live near a theater playing You Were Never Really Here, I really recommend checking it out. It’s one of the best films I’ve seen this year.

Collider: I try to eat organic as much as I can and I wish I started sooner. I feel so much better as a person, eating healthier, eating more fruits and vegetables.

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Image via Amazon Studios

JOAQUIN PHOENIX: Here's the next step, and this is just what recently what I've been getting into, is a vegetable garden. I don't know if you have any amount of yard. Do you have any yard?

I'm never going to be able to do that, at least at this point in my life, but down the road, who knows?

PHOENIX: Because you don't have the space or you don't have the time?

Space.

PHOENIX: You live in an apartment?

No, there's animals that live near me that would probably eat everything. It would be a tremendous amount of work. The ground that is in my area, I'd probably really have to till the land in a crazy way, insert dirt. There would be a huge upheaval.

PHOENIX: Okay. Well, whenever you can, that's the move.

What are you growing?

PHOENIX: I can't remember. I just take, like I say rock and roll gardening. I just grab fucking things, and I go, "I should probably put down what's growing where, so I know," but I don't. I have arugula, I have leaf lettuce, zucchini, green beans.

Do you have some sort of sprinkler system? Are you manually ...

PHOENIX: Both. There's a sprinkler system that goes, but that only happens early morning. When it's just starting out, I water it twice. In the beginning, I have to water it twice.

This is what you're doing on Saturdays. We have finally come back to ...

PHOENIX: Well, every day.

What happens when you're filming a movie?

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Image via Amazon

PHOENIX: It hasn't happened yet.

You just installed all this. This is new.

PHOENIX: It's been last year, when I got home, was when I started this.

Got it.

PHOENIX: I've already gone through one cycle with the crops coming in, and so I just planted new stuff.

What happens when you're filming again?

PHOENIX: I don't know.

I'm sure you have at least a friend or two who can come over and water.

PHOENIX: The watering won't be the problem.

Animals?

PHOENIX: No, not animals.

Picking the vegetables as they're done?

PHOENIX: Yeah. I mean they might just go back into the earth, but then that would be a cool life for them I guess.

In an ideal world, there would be a way to get it so someone could eat it.

PHOENIX: Yeah, right. If we don't, then the insects will. It's not going to be wasted.

Right, it's circle of life, to quote Lion King, you know what I mean?

PHOENIX: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Completely switching subjects. I'm sure you've been offered a number of interesting things. Do you live with regret in decisions that you've made, or once you turn down a role, do you sort of say, "That's it, it's out of my system." I'm sure you must have turned something down that went on to be, and you saw the person's performance, and you're like, "Oh fuck, I should have done that," or does that never work with you?

PHOENIX: Not because of that. Anytime that happens, I go, "Yeah, it's really good. I wouldn't have done that. He was meant to do it." I never see a performance, go like, "That was great. Fuck, I wish I would have done it." There's one movie that I wish I would have done, but I'm not going to tell you what it is. One day, one day I will.

Let me ask you this question, was it in the last five years?

PHOENIX: No.

It's further back.

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Image via Amazon Studios

PHOENIX: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Got it, okay. One day, down the road, I'll get an answer out of you.

PHOENIX: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

I've spoken to people that say, "Look, once I turn it down, I've mentally reached the point where I don't want to do it, so whatever happens after that." Some people say, "I live with constant regret and indecision."

PHOENIX: There's one movie, but it wasn't because of the ... It was very good, and the actor was very good in it. I never could have, what he did was better than anything I would have done. I turned it down because I kind of judged what I thought was going to be the process of making the movie, and I was wrong about that. I regret that. I regret not being more open.

It was one of those bigger movies then, that maybe turned into something better?

PHOENIX: (laughs) Mm-hmm (affirmative).

I get it. I'm going to go back to this, I brought it up a little bit at the beginning, and I know you've been asked this. There has been a lot of talk about you possibly being in a one-off superhero movie with Todd Phillips, playing an iconic role. I guess I just sort of want to know is there any smoke to that fire, or is that fire completely off base?

PHOENIX: What does that mean?

There’s a lot of talk about Todd Phillips making an 80s movie about the origins of the Joker, you know the Batman villain. I’m just curious if there’s any smoke to that fire, or if you really don’t know anything about it?

PHOENIX: I don't know really. I don't know.

Sure. Do you know who Todd Phillips is?

PHOENIX: He did ...

The Hangover movies.

PHOENIX: Yeah.

Totally.

PHOENIX: I've met him, I like him.

He's a talented filmmaker and a good guy.

PHOENIX: For sure.

You're a comic book guy, you grew up with comics. You know who the Joker is. You know Heath Ledger and you know Jared [Leto] recently played him. I’ll put it like this, is that a role that you’re even remotely interested in pursuing? A lot of people sort of look at Heath Ledger and what he did with that character with Christopher Nolan in The Dark Knight, and sort of say, “That is the pinnacle,” do you know what I mean? That performance, he gave his heart and soul to that performance. Some people might be, I don’t want to say the word intimidated, but you can kind of always be compared and contrasted to that iconic performance.

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PHOENIX: Yeah. I don’t know about that movie or character specifically, but I was thinking about it’s interesting with comics. We were talking, there’s different writers and artists that come on.

It’s different than this character from literature being uniquely that. There are different interpretations. It’s so interesting; I was just thinking about it today, it seems so unique in some ways to comic books. I think there’s probably room for that. Maybe it’s like doing a play, like you always hear about people doing something, “You should have seen this actor in this performance,” but then other actors do it and it’s a different kind of film. I think that genre, comic books, kind of lends itself to having different people play the same character and interpret it in a different way. It’s kind of built into the source material in some ways. I think it’s cool when people do that.

I completely agree with you. I think that when you read a Batman story by one writer and a Batman story by another writer, he’s still Batman, but it’s totally different dialogue, and totally different …

PHOENIX: Tone and feel.

Totally. It’s also who’s drawing it and who’s inking it, and all of that stuff, and what’s the story that they’re telling. I guess what I’m saying is, I won’t make you talk about it anymore, but I am curious if you’re going to do it.

PHOENIX: I have no idea what we're talking about.

Sure. (laughing)

PHOENIX: It's interesting though, to talk about.

Just to let you know, a story broke, just to make it as clear as I can, that you were the guy that they were talking to about playing the Joker in a Todd Phillips Joker movie, where he’s like a standup comedian in the 80s, and somehow …

PHOENIX: That sounds pretty good.

It’s how he became the Joker, but it’s like a solo movie. It’s not connected to the others, going to what you said about how it could be a different writer, a different director, a different take on that character. It also fits into what you were saying about not doing something that’s going to be sequels, and spinoffs, and everything else.

PHOENIX: That sounds pretty funny.

I’ve got to be honest with you, and I speak for fandom, the people online that talk about movies and whatever, there aren’t too many actors who are announced for a major role and fandom in unison says, “Fuck yes.” That happened when you were mentioned. People were very, very excited about that, to see your take and your performance. I’m letting you know that there are a lot of people interested in it.

PHOENIX: Wow. Sounds pretty cool.

I saw Nolan ask this question of an actor, and I thought if Nolan can ask this question, I can ask it to you. To be clear: I'm totally stealing this from Christopher Nolan. He said, "How do you achieve a balance between script based discipline and emotional spontaneity?"

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Image via Amazon Studios

PHOENIX: Luck. It's so weird that, that comes from him, because I would say the deciding factor would be the filmmaker. Do you know what I mean? Somehow, sometimes it's obvious, it's overt, how a filmmaker puts their print on the film, the tone. Sometimes it's more subtle. I always feel like ... There's times where I will go into a scene and I don't feel comfortable with the dialogue. It doesn't feel right to me, and so I will try other things to try and find my way into it. Oftentimes, you go off on a tangent that's just garbage, and then you come back to the dialogue, and now suddenly for some reason it's working. I don't know why. Maybe I'm not really understanding the question, I thought I was. I guess I don't really know the answer. It's just a process of discovery. You try going and inventing your own path and your own dialogue, and sometimes that just leads you back to the script. Other times, what's in the script feels right from the beginning. I don't really know. I want to say something that sounds really cool and smart, but I don't know.

I think for me, it's how do you be emotionally honest in the scene when you are saying dialogue that's pre-scripted? Do you know what I mean? I guess it's just being a good actor. I don't know the answer either. I just thought it was an interesting question.

PHOENIX: It is an interesting question. I don't know the answer.

I know I'm almost out of time with you, so I have to ask you, I'm a huge fan, like everyone, of your collaborations with Paul [Thomas Anderson]. I'm just curious, what has it been like for you working with him? Do you foresee yourself working with him again in the future?

PHOENIX: He's like someone that came, brought me this movie at this time in my career that it just couldn't have been more perfect timing for me. I feel like I learned, so much of the experience taught me so much, and also working with Phillip [Seymour Hoffman], there's just something so magical about that film to me, the experience of making that movie. I feel strongly about Paul. I have so much love and respect for him as a man and as a creative person. I feel like I don't know, it's just one of those moments where I wonder what kind of actor I'd be without that experience, without having worked with him. I hope that we'll work together again. I don't know. If I turn around in 20 years and I say I got to work with Paul twice, that's ... You know what I mean?

Totally.

PHOENIX: Fucking great. Yeah, of course, I'm fucking greedy. I would like to do it more, but if that's all I got, I feel very fortunate to have had that experience.

Are you at the point now that you are seeking out certain filmmakers that you want to work with, or are you sort of like, "What script flows my way, let's see what happens."

PHOENIX: No. I think because I'm lazy. I feel like I should be. I'm like, "Oh, that's what I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to develop things. Find specific directors." I think there's probably only a few directors that every actor would want to work with. It's not something special. You don't call and go like, "I had a feeling about this Paul fellow. What is he up to next? I have a feeling he's going to do something that might be interesting." I don't have that and I probably should. I don't know. It's just chance with me.

Do you feel, because some people say, for example with Bill Murray, he is tough to get a hold of, he's tough to get a script to, tough to commit. Do you feel like you're in that boat, where you're tough to get a hold of, or do you feel like ...

PHOENIX: No, I have a fucking agent.

With your agent, how often is he sending you scripts to read? Do you ever go through dry spells? Does he know sort of what you're looking for?

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Image via Amazon Studios

PHOENIX: Before I did these movies, I hadn't worked for two years. One year of that, I didn't want to. Then the next year, I was like, "Let's find something, because I feel myself gearing up for something. I don't know if it's going to be in two months or if it's going to be in eight months, but let's start the search." After about six months of not finding anything, I was nervous. You always hear this thing, I've been hearing this for five years at least, which is, "They don't make those movies anymore."

Sure.

PHOENIX: You go, "Oh fuck, yeah I've heard this before." After six months you go, "Fuck me, they really don't make these movies anymore. Did it really happen? It might have happened. It might be over." You get nervous. Obviously not a comfortable place to be in. I'm not good to make decisions based on fear, obviously. There had been moments where I'd get close to, where I'd have several meetings with people about a project, and I'm trying to work out, "Can this work? What if we did this?" I've had some of those meetings. Then, I don't know, I think sometimes I get lucky and they just don't want me. You go, "Thank God they did not want me."

I really do feel like, I don't know, you just get lucky or you don't. I do have a really great agent that I like a lot, who honestly I mean, it's fun in Hollywood to make fun of agents, like everyone does. It's kind of like an ongoing joke, but I have to say my agent really kind of like, following I'm Still Here, where I was probably, my career was at its worst. The possibilities, the offers that I was getting, was the worst that I ever experienced in my life. There was a real moment where I thought, "I might have really fucked my career, like legit."

I have to say that he was really, he was great in those moments, and really helped me get through a couple decisions, where I almost did some things, and if I told you what they were, you would be really surprised. I'd just do those things ...

Were you thinking at that point, at that moment, was it more about a financial decision, where you're like, "I better work," or more like, "I need to work, just to show that I can still work."

PHOENIX: No, no, no. I've been really lucky that something, I've never had to do something for money. I always just get there in time.

Here's the thing though, some people want to see or want to be on a movie that literally is shown all around the planet. Again, I go back to the superhero movie, but the event film, if you will. I love indie movies. I love movies that have a statement about life. I love movies that deal with social and political issues, but at the same time there are so many people on this planet dealing with some serious hardships. One of the things I love about Hollywood is we provide, not that I do it, but Hollywood provides two hours where you are forgetting about your life, where you're forgetting about what's going on, and you are just having a fun time. I love that, but I also think that we can make movies that can educate people on things.

PHOENIX: I just want to feel something very strongly, and that's what I find enjoyable. It doesn't have to be just exhilaration. It doesn't have to just be excitement. When I go in and I see some of these movies you're talking about, some of these tent pole movies, I mean listen, there were two recently that 15 minutes in, I just absolutely couldn't handle it and I had to leave. Just unbearable to me. Didn't feel anything. Saw some cool flashy stuff, but after seeing one of those sequences, I was done.

Were you watching this at home or in a movie theater?

PHOENIX: No, in a movie theater.

In that moment, do you stand up and walk out?

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Image via Amazon Studios

PHOENIX: Absolutely.

Got it. You're not a completist. For me, I have to, once I start something, I've got to make it ‘til the end.

PHOENIX: Oh God no. There was no way. I fought my feeling two or three times. I kept going, and then finally it became too much. Then, that Cristian Mungiu film, 4 Months, 3 Weeks, and 2 Days.

Oh yeah, that's tremendous.

PHOENIX: Not an uplifting story, but the feeling that I have in my body when I'm watching it, it's so intense. I'm running through all these emotions. To me, that takes me out of my day. That puts me in someone else's world. That's what I look for. That's what I love. I don't know, maybe it's not fair. Maybe you're saying my daily experience is different than someone else's.

Listen, I think that you're in a very rare position in this town, where you can probably make whatever you want to make.

PHOENIX: That's not true.

Really?

PHOENIX: Yeah, I don't think that's true.

You don't think that you ... I would like to think that you could get a script made that might be harder for other people, with your attachment? Have you tried, or you don't think it's true?

PHOENIX: I don't really know. I don't know. Look, I enjoy sometimes those pop anthems, and sometimes there's bands and it's fun, so I get the idea. I'm not a fucking film snob, but there's a difference between me as an audience member and me as an actor that's participating in the making of.

Totally get it.

PHOENIX: There are things that I would enjoy to watch, but I couldn't possibly make, because I'd be fucking bored to death.

The other thing is, when you're making a smaller movie, you are sometimes done in 25 days or 30 days, and some of the big movies, you're filming for six months or eight months. I'm basically out of time with you, so my last thing. I know you have a few projects still coming out. How long have you been on break and when do you think that you're going to start up again?

PHOENIX: I finished the last film in September last year. I will probably, I don't know. I haven't decided on anything. I don't know what I'm going to do, but maybe I'll do something this year. I don't know.

Oh, you really are not sure.

PHOENIX: No.

Interesting. You're enjoying your vacation?

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Image via Amazon Studios

PHOENIX: I love it. I feel guilty after everything you just said, to say like ...

You should be working more on entertaining the world. I'm joking.

PHOENIX: I don't know if that thing, but yeah, it's amazing. I'm so fortunate. Things are nice.

Sure. I'll end this by saying I hope this Joker thing happens, because I think that would be really cool.

PHOENIX: It sounds interesting.

I legitimately would love to see you doing it. I got to go.

PHOENIX: Okay.

You Were Never Really Here is now playing in limited release.

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