Troy Baker who plays Joel in The Last of Us Part 2, talks with Dennis and Dorian about launching the game in a pandemic, who he would cast as Joel in the upcoming HBO series, why he wants to play Daredevil in a video game, the infamous leaks, the last day shooting with Ashley Johnson, the Pearl Jam song used in the game and more.

[Editor’s note: The following contains spoilers for The Last of Us: Part II. For more of our coverage, be sure to check out our spoiler-free review, our beginner’s tips & tricks here, the list of trophies, and a full-on spoiler rundown here, including our ending explainer.]

If you want the inside scoop on all things The Last of Us: Part II, you're in the right place. Collider Games sat down with Joel himself, Troy Baker, to talk about the divisive, contentious, and controversial game of the year. If you want to jump straight to certain talking points -- like just how tough Baker's last day of shooting was with co-star Ashley Johnson, or who he thinks should play his character in the upcoming HBO live-action series -- you can head on over to those links or play them in the clipped videos we provided for you below.

But if you're here for the long haul, settle in, because Baker talked with the Collider Games crew for over an hour about the game and his part to play in it all, from his first reaction to reading the script to his thoughts on the leaks that came out before the game's launch. Plus, Baker shares his perspective on the game from the point of view of a father, something he didn't have the benefit of during the first game. And never fear, Baker continues his award-winning voice work in more future projects, like Marvel's Avengers video game, and maybe a few he would like to see as a fan himself. Take a listen above and follow along below!

Troy Baker Thinks Josh Brolin Would Be Great as Joel in the HBO Live-Action Series 

Collider: I don't want to see anybody else besides you playing the live action Joel but if if you had to pick fan cast somebody to play this live action version, who would it be? 

Troy Baker: The crazy conversations that have been had. And I've Craig Mazin, who's now at the helm of that, who [was] the showrunner for Chernobyl has become a buddy like, like, I'm honored to say that the guy's a brilliant writer. He's got an incredible podcast about writing called scriptnotes. And you know, we were Twitter friends, and I was like, I think you're awesome. I think I think you're awesome. And we just go back and forth just giving each other love.

But you know, Craig has really got the unique perspective on this, to be able to take this from medium into another, and I even asked Neil like, why are you doing? Why are you trying to make this into a movie and now into a TV show? He said, because at the end of the day, there are people that are just not going to pick up a controller and experience this story. And I think this story deserves to be heard and to be experienced.

I was like, I can't argue with that. Make it a book, make it a movie, make it a show. It's gonna be best as a show. But all I want out of Joel, I have done. I have taken Joel as far as I can take it. I did the same in part one. Same in part two. I did it as far to two. That was my job was to move that character as far forward as I could. What I'm excited about is finding someone that can give me a completely different side of Joel, and show me how far that character can stretch.

Dude, I am no stranger to stepping into pretty pre-existing roles, like you at I’ve played Batman. I mean, Jesus, how many people played Batman terribly and amazingly, the Joker same thing. It's like, there have been more people who have walked on the moon than have played the Joker. And that is that is a cool cool fact that I probably just made up. But my job is not to go I hope that I'm better than or I'll never be as good as because then I'm not thinking about the character.

Dude, I would love honestly for it to be someone like everyone goes like Hugh Jackman or they just go for the aesthetic. They're are people that I thought would be great.  I remember being at LAX and Josh Brolin was there, we were in the lounge together, and I walked up. I was like, man, I doubt you remember this, but you and I were doing a movie you were doing. He was doing No Country. And I was doing a Western. And I was like you and I met we had drinks this one night had a good night. Like, I think I remember that as like a doubt you do, because I know how much we have all had to drink. I said, there is a game that's coming out. And I want you to know that, for me, so much of your work was very influential, and that he really, really was. And I was like, if you ever get the call for a character named Joel, I would be honored and I think he would be enriched to play that character. And I think on its face, literally, Josh Brolin would be a knockout choice, but I don't know if I would see. I don't know if I would walk away learning something different about Joel and I'm in a great position because either A somebody slips into that role. And I was like, Damn, dude, I never thought about that, Wow, what an interesting choice. Or B, they suck if people go only Troy can play Joel, so either way I went, right

Troy Baker on How Becoming a Father Changed His View on 'The Last of Us', Plus, His Thoughts on The Leaks

Collider: You know, you mentioned working on the second part and how you took a lot of the stuff that you guys developed in the first game too. But you recently became a father in 2018. How did that kind of affect your perspective in this relationship between Joel and Ellie into into your performance?

Troy Baker: Dude, hands down and I know the job of an actor is to put yourself in a position and that's that's your job is to perform that scene to the best of your ability and as honestly as possible. However, I can undeniably say that there is no way I could go back and do that sarah scene over again. I don't think I can do it for the first time, you know. I mean, knowing that Neil wrote that when his daughter was the same age as my son now makes me have a tremendous amount of even more respect. Look, man, you can call me a fanboy all you want just fine. I'm a fan of Neil Druckmann. I am a fan of Neil Druckmann as a writer and as a person as a dude, and a nobody perfect, but damn, that guy tries and I, I genuinely love that man. And the more that I work with him, and the more that our friendship grows. I have such respect for him.

He said something I was like, he said, I sometimes I get undue credit. And so sometimes we're going to get undue blame. And so he took all of the situations it was just like, I'm gonna take it on the chin for everybody. And all he really ever cared about was the team. So like when this whole thing happened, and supposedly went down. My heart broke for him. People asked how did you feel, I was angry. But I wasn't anywhere near where Neil was in deals heart was breaking for the team. Because there were the most talented people that were so diligently working and giving their lives over voluntarily for this thing, and for that, to just get the rug pulled up on it's just the shittiest thing that could possibly ever happen.

But to know that Neil wrote that scene and him being a father having the patience to me as a father go, I don't know how to explain this to you, your entire world is about to change. Like when my son was born. The two things that my wife and I were both like, you always, you hear like I die for you. It's like, that's a great little platitude.

You're like, Oh, no, I die for you. Like I would literally just like oh, would step into a bus. And it's not. It's not like this brave, heroic notion that you all of a sudden are born with all this courage. You literally would just go I don't know the sky is blue and I would step in from that bus like that's that's just what would happen. My wife was telling me We forgot about this, but like when he was like, maybe two days old, there was a mosquito in our room. And he was sleeping right in between us. And both of us were just like assassins. We're like, you come anywhere closer. I swear to God, I'll read you wink, wink. It's crazy how much from a genetic level how much you change.

So to come back for Part Two. And now for there to be that awareness man. There's a whole new layer to dialogue and words and choice and everything else and even playing it. I mean, ah, there's so much that it's just I've never been in a situation before and I never will, again, where I've been so in sync and in parallel with a character in a moment of a game, where exactly what the characters are feeling. I'm feeling like.not like I was so sympathetic, am I talking about full on empathy? There's this one moment, and I just was like, I am 100% that person right now. It's crazy.

Troy Baker's Reaction to Reading 'The Last of Us 2' Script for the First Time

Skip to: 20:25

Collider: Without any spoilers, what was your kind of first reaction of reading the script for the for Part Two? 

Troy Baker: So it wasn't really the script. I've said this so much and I'm wondering if my version of it true or am I just really believing the story that I told about this, but as I recall, we were in London, I think for the BAFTAs when “Left Behind’ was winning. And we went to this after after party because after the BAFTA’s, everyone's congratulating or commiserating. And then we leave there go to this one bar, everyone's like, Oh, we don't want to be here. So we found this dive bar in East London. And we were out in the middle of a parking lot. It felt like it was somebody's house that they just haven't had a beer or whatever. But we're outside. And we're standing there. And it's kind of cold. Because it's April.

And Neil goes, so I think I have an idea. And I went, go on. And he starts telling me he was like, so this, this and this, it was super rough. You know, broad strokes of the story, but I'm like, I could tell that he had an idea that he was really a story concept that he was really, really proud of and excited about. Cut to like, two years later. He's like, I want you to come over to the house. He sat me down like let's go in my Office and And it's like, I want to walk you through the story. an hour and a half later. I had I had originally started I'd like a notepad like Yes, go on into that character's name, that's very fat. I'll get back to that. But I'm just curious and I was trying to be this diligent student, and an hour and a half later, the notes are beside me, I am wrapped with attention. And I'm in tears. I was like, we have to tell this story. Like that is a story that must be told.

And I had no idea everything that was going to happen subsequently to that moment or subsequent to that moment. But even if nothing else, if you guys are Steve Saylor is known as the Blind gamer and he's been such a strong advocate for accessibility in games. And every time someone goes, I can't believe they you know they're gonna do this and it's not good or whatever, they blast it. I just want to show them this video of Steve sailors response to it because it's him in absolute tears on the menu screen, because of the accessibility that the cutting edge, amount of accessibility that was specifically designed for the disabled community. And if for nothing else, man, that moment, everything that we went through everything the team went through was what was worth it for that one person's experience.

I think it was Emerson Ralph Waldo Emerson that said, all of history exists for the sake of a single person. It's like we've, we've experienced all of this so that we as an individual can go, that's what it feels like to feel pain. That's what it feels like to feel love. So all of this exists, so that we can understand that we're all experiencing life in a different way. But it's still the same story. We're all living the same story. So everything that we went through was worth it. I think that answers somehow your question.

Troy Baker Talks About Shooting His Last Scene with Ashley Johnson on 'The Last of Us Part 2'

Skip to: 23:57- 26:33

Collider: Speaking of that, what was it like just shooting like that? Last mocap scene with Ashley like, no, like no spoilers or whatever, but just that last, you know that last movie, you're going to be together shooting that scene. What was that moment like?

Troy Baker: There was not a dry eye. On the stage, there's about 30 people on stage. And it's one scene. That was an interesting thing is like, there were a couple of scenes in there that I was like, holy shit, that was our entire morning. Like, we worked an entire morning on one scene, or we spent the entire afternoon on one scene that that was one of them. And that's the one thing that nobody ever wants to hear is that's a wrap. You're like, Oh, wow. And I had just watched Nolan go through this with Uncharted. And I was giving him shit because I was like, haha, you know, because, you know, he always loves to hold court, but he doesn't wanna be the center of attention when it's like a real moment. And, you know, all of us I look and he's not paying attention on Uncharted 4. And they're wheeling the card out with a cake and champagne and I'm like, Oh shit. And they're like everybody, that's a wrap on Nathan Drake. And like speech, he's like, I just wanna go to my car, get out of here. And so here it is, we're wrapping on The Last of Us. And here comes the champagne. I'm like, I don't want to be here. And it was just like everyone just hung out because we didn't want to leave.

And there's that picture that you know, went up on Instagram or whatever of Ashley and I, and then the one of the three of us, me, Neil and Ashley, and we have done something similar on part one, and it's just those kids in the first one and the adults in the second one is how it feels like there's just I texted Ashley last night as like there's so much life that has happened between that moment in this it's just it's it's crazy that what did I text her see if I can at least paraphrase without spoiling anything.

I said a lot of life is happening. In between that day in this in so many ways the story of this game and that journey reflects our individual paths. That told us that I can't say I'm blown away by your performance because it has the opposite effect. I'm pulled in closer and closer the further I go, every choice is wielded with deafness and honesty. I can't say enough dude, Ashley is next level, lights out. Next level, lights out, these scenes I've never, I can't even talk I mean, like the gameplay. I have never in my life played a game where the gameplay the mechanics are so character driven to where everything you do is driven by character and tacked on to that, You are the one that's doing it.

There was one scene or the one sequence where I was talking to somebody else. And they were like, Oh my god, dude, I got held up on here. And this is just the big firefight. And it's just crazy. And I barely made it out. And I was like, Oh, yeah, I just threw a brick there. Like, why is there a third brick and went around? And I was like, yeah, you can completely go around. And you start exploring this world, and you realize how many ways there are to play this game. And so right now the conversation the top of the conversation is so brutal in the violence is so brutal, like two comments on that, number one, this game rests on a pendulum, and in order to have to reach the heights that it does, it must go to the depths. So in order to achieve that level of beauty, we must have that level of despair. It's that's how it works. That's the physics of emotion. So it's, it's never grit. It's the most brutal game I've ever played. But it's not gratuitous. I don't know how they managed to do that. But it's so balanced. And secondly, You are in control you have le is not an empty character that you inhabit she is a fully fleshed out character that you will at times be in conflict with or in even opposition to. But when it comes down to you being on the stick, you're in charge and the thing that the game does so good is rewarding not rewarding you but allowing you to be whatever version of Ellie you want it to be. It's crazy, man. It's some next level stuff the gameplay is bananas good.

Talks About Playing Bruce Banner in the New 'Avengers' Game & How Fun Kamala Khan Is in It

Skip to: 39:05 - 41:52

Collider: And speaking of just upcoming games, we'll talk about loss of a little bit more in a minute but just you got you have some other upcoming games coming out this year as well like Avengers So can you tell us anything about your role or anything like that? I know that Marvel snipers are watching this right now.

Troy Baker: Dude did you see that thing? There was a tweet that I think was GameSpot or whatever put out there and were like Spider-Man such a great game. What other Marvel character would you like to see turned into a game and I put it as a joke. I was like cough hashtag Bill Roseman, or at Bill Roseman cough cough. Yeah, he responded. He said, We all know that you are the man without fear. And everyone's like, Oh shit, they're teasing the Daredevil game or whatever. Like, no, no, hold on, hold on.

So I am super. I am grateful that for right now, the only Marvel game that I am in is me playing Bruce Banner and Shauna Sky who was at Naughty Dog became the creative director for an a and the lead writer for this Avengers game and dude, the world that he built and the story that he told and to do it again those circumstances was like great. We just finished the most impactful most successful franchise ever. You tell a story in that same world they're like, Well, shit, I don't know that. So he crafted this incredibly unique new story with Avengers and when he cast me he was like, I want you to play Banner. I'm like, cool. Yeah, I normally play Hawkeye or Loki. So that's, that's what you meant to say is like, No, no, no, no, man. I want you to be banner. Like, I don't know if I want to be the Hulk. He's like, you're not going to be the Hulk. I just want you to play banner. So this story that we get to tell. We get to see a lot of New York Comic Con they showed it off.

Dude, it is so fun. It is fun playing that game. And the story is incredible. It's if you're a comic book fan especially there's so many nods to cannon that I really really love and like deep cuts to like wow I can't believe we even did some stuff not that long ago where I was like are you guys hinting at this and they're like way to go, We're glad that someone's picking up on this so it's a it's a game that's being made for people that this could easily be their entry point. I don't know why it would be but like if you unless you live under a rock, you know you can't escape you can't walk three feet and not hit something it's Marvel. But if for some reason you never really got into the lore you never had an experience where you especially got to play as the Avengers man this is a great entry point into it and I am I love the character they get to play on I'm I'm a little protective now over over banner.

Collider: Just piggybacking off of that what was your initial reaction when you found out that Kamala Khan was going to be in the game because I know for a lot of people out there like she's a she One of the newer characters, so for her to get her her debut in this, it was a pretty big deal.

Troy Baker: It didn't surprise me with Shawn. Just because especially if you play lost legacy, that is something that is just near and dear to his heart. And so, Shawn grew up in Trinidad and Shawn has always been a big advocate for being able to spotlight people of color, not fruit to tick a box and just for diversity sake, but to show the incredibly accessible characters that they are and the strength and the prowess that they have and how much fun it is and how interesting and how fully fleshed out they are. So this is something that's like totally in his wheelhouse to be able to do so once I was like when they started talking about like kind of hinted towards stuff I'm like, Wait, is this game is like a we're gonna Kamala Khan what what, like, what a bold choice, you know, whatever do that. And that's... honestly, as fun as it is to be Iron Man or Captain America or even Incredible Hulk, it is so much... it's so rewarding to swing around and be Kamala Khan.

Troy Baker on Why He Wants a 'Daredevil' Game + Praising Charlie Cox’s Portrayal of the Role 

Skip to: 48:44 - 50:22

Collider: And so you've already voiced all these iconic villains and Batman who is the next person on your arsenal that you're looking forward to tackling? 

Troy Baker: I already done told you, man, Bill. Let's make a daredevil game. Look, DC Batman was my friend. It was the first graphic novel that ever bought and I’m lobbying for this so hard and I swear to you internet This is not like a campaign. Well no, it is a campaign but it's just not an official one.

I grew up reading comics and the first one that like the series that I got into there are people that got into Superman Batman, Spider Man whatever the first one for me and I don't know why it may have literally just been a price thing because like it like maybe Daredevil was 50 cents and everything else was 70 so i was like I can get two of those I can or I can get one I got into Daredevil and his specific story the fact that he was a poor kid, Sta lee has this running thing of turning your tragedy into triumph. It's It's so interesting because the major event in Matt Murdock or Daredevil's life is not the death of his father. Like it is with Batman. It's the fact that before his dad dies, he has this accident that blinds him. And his dad is the one that convinces him to be a fighter and to keep going and find the strength in that.

And so he finds that and then some versions of the story how Matt doesn't want to tell his dad that he has these abilities as if it was Dad's going to think all of this stuff and the fact that he could have stopped those people. So great. So I read Daredevil that the reason why I want them to make that a game, because Charlie Cox did an incredible job on the show, man, and when I first saw him was like, yo, you can either have blond hair or red hair, but you cannot have black hair, and you can't be Irish and like trying to get rid of the accent for the first few episodes and then just decide to throw it. And he completely changed the role just like Vincent D did for Wilson. Like, that is the best take on kingpin I've ever seen. For me, it's about this games as the player as the person playing the game, that character can do things that I can't. And that's why we play. They can jump higher, they can shoot, they could drive they can fly whatever it is, what do you do with a game when I can do something the character can't. And that to me is like there's been a couple of games that have explored sight you know, being sighted or not and and and how that looks or even being deaf. So what does that look like inside of that space? I think that'd be a fantastic thing for Marvel to do.