With The Card Counter opening in select theaters this weekend, I recently had the chance to speak with writer-director Paul Schrader about making the revenge thriller. In the film, Oscar Isaac stars as William Tell, a card counter who lives as anonymously as possible on his travels from casino to casino, content to make just enough to keep going. When he is approached by Circ (Tye Sheridan) to help him seek revenge on a military colonel (Willem Dafoe) that has connections to both of their lives, he takes the young man on the road with him to try and break his obsession with revenge. When a mysterious gambling financier La Linda (Tiffany Haddish) offers to stake him so he can play for higher stakes, Tell sees a chance at redemption through his relationship with Cirk and they all set out on the road towards playing in the World Series of Poker tournament in Las Vegas. As you can imagine in a film written by Paul Schrader, things go not go as planned.

During the interview, Schrader talked about why he doesn’t want to make big budget films, which of his films changed a lot in the editing room, how COVID almost derailed The Card Counter, how not having the time or money led to his unique way of shooting the Abu Ghraib prison sequences, why he likes to offer actors a script without going through their agent, why he likes casting a comedian for a dramatic role, and more. In addition, he shares a story about Philip Seymour Hoffman and the way he would take everything he could when filming a scene.

Check out what he had to say below.

COLLIDER: If you could get the financing for any project, what would you make and why?

PAUL SCHRADER: I don't think I would let my mind go there. I'm not enamored of the big toys. I can't let my mind go where Scorsese is now with a $200 million dollar film. I'm very happy to be making these handcrafted smaller scale films where I have complete control and final cut. Those are the ones that I'm very happy to make. If I wanted to make a film in scale and spectacle, I don't know. There are a few directors out there who have control like that, like Steve (Spielberg) and Marty (Scorsese) do. But mostly you don't. Mostly, you have to surrender your control to get to play with the big toys. To me, it's not worth it.

the-card-counter Paul Schrader and Oscar Isaac
Image via Focus Features

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You make the deal with the devil if you want to have control of that kind of film. Ultimately, that amount of budget requires a return on investment. So, you need to be careful with the art.

SCHRADER: Totally. I'm a good church boy. I'm raised to be a responsible steward.

You have been involved in many movies. I'm curious, which of your films that you've been involved with have changed the most in the editing room, from what you expected going in?

SCHRADER: Most of them didn't because I write very, very detailed scripts. Usually, before I'd make the film, I know what's going to happen on page 73. If something changes, a scene gets shifted or... but now, with these tighter budgets, I don't even shoot scenes that aren't in the movie anymore. There was one excised scene in First Reformed. There are none in Card Counter. When you shoot scenes that aren't in the film, you're putting money in a place where you could put it for something that is in the film. You get very, very disciplined about walking away when you have it.

The films don't change that much because they're so calculated. The one that did change, I got thrown off from, because I made a film called Dying of the Light. And it didn't work. I started to try to change it in the editing. It was made by people who had a VOD formula in mind. They had what they wanted. They didn't want me to try to find something else. So, they got rid of me, and that was that.

It is a terrible thing when you realize in the editing that the film isn't working. The main reason a film doesn't work is usually because you've miscast. Once you've miscast a film, nothing you can do in post-production, nothing. Casting is destiny. I've miss cast a couple of films. It's no fault of the actors. I just shouldn't have hired them. They weren't right for the job. Yet, the temptation is always there because you get a green light. They say we'll make this film with Michael J. Fox. I said, "I don't think Michael's quite right." But he could get your film made. I said, "I can do that. I can make that work."

the-card-counter Paul Schrader Oscar Isaac
Image via Focus Features

You made The Card Counter right before the world shut down. I read that you had one week left to filming when everything's shut down. I'm curious, did you end up getting that last week of filming? How did that work?

SCHRADER: We did. We monitored the situation. There was a kind of window that opened up about six months later. I had to really bang my casts on the head because they were all elsewhere. I told them “There is a chance this could be one of those films that's never finished. So, we've got to go back.” We got to take this week and make this. I remember when I was shooting, I was shooting the big crowd shoot, 500 extras. I remember saying to the AD, somebody in this room has it. I know it. COVID had already been out there. Macau had already closed down. That was the biggest gambling city in the world. I said, "Somebody in this room has it. I know it." And yes, someone in the room did have it. Two days later, we shut down.

Wow. You do a very good job of explaining card counting in the movie, with the number system and the way you film it. How did you end up figuring out how you wanted to portray Oscar explaining to the audience how this works?

SCHRADER: We had a number of red herrings here and the power of genre. The main red herring is Mr. USA, the big showdown. If you're smart as a viewer, you'd say, wait a second. He's yanking on my leg here. Another red herring is this is just informational. You're going to learn about card play. I use those devices to shift audiences' expectations. There's nothing special about this film. We're just going to tell you how people play cards. Then boom, we're in Abu Ghraib.

Speaking of the prison, you shoot it in a very unique way, with the way the lens is going, with the way it's captured. Can you talk about why you wanted to shoot it that way?

SCHRADER: I didn't have the time or money to take on the films who had done it previously, like Zero Dark Thirty. So, I had to come up with something on my own. I had to go into a kind of distorted memory rather than realistic recreation. This lens sees everything, but the operator. It just wraps around the world. Because of it, it doesn't lend itself very well to cuts. You have to do it one long take. It was all better for me because that means I can do both scenes in one day rather than both scenes in two days. Anybody who has seen photos from Abu Ghraib, knows what it looks like. It's a rectangular warehouse. I'm shooting it, and it's a maze, people wandering in and out of cul-de-sacs. Anybody who is familiar with Abu Ghraib will look at the movie, say that's not Abu Ghraib. It's not, it's a memory, just like these guys in Afghanistan in the last week at the airport. Boy, are they going to have some memories.

the-card-counter-Oscar Isaac Tye Sheridan
Image via Focus Features

RELATED: First ‘The Card Counter’ Trailer Ups the Ante With Oscar Isaac and Tiffany Haddish in Paul Schrader’s Revenge Thriller

I've interviewed a lot of directors, and sometimes they've told me how you could wait six months on an actor deciding if they want to make your movie. I read that you gave Oscar the script, and it was one day later that he said that he wanted to be part of your movie.

SCHRADER: The same thing with Ethan (Hawke). In both cases, I approached them beforehand because I knew them directly. Then, you can approach them as opposed to having to approach their representatives who are essentially there to keep them from getting scripts. They won't get paid for it. I called Ethan. I spoke to Oscar. I said, "I've written something. I think this is perfect for you. I'll send it to you if you'll read it right away. Give me an answer in a week if you understand our economic parameters." In both cases, they said yes. I knew the very fact that they had agreed to get it in the mail meant that I was going to get an answer in a week.

Oscar is, as usual, fantastic. He's such a talented actor. If you could share a little bit of working with him on set and what impresses you about his ability.

SCHRADER: It took him a while to figure out the power of a recessive performance. A lot of actors like to earn their living by acting. These kind of performances...I'm fond of saying to the actor that you're like a rocky cliff and the waves coming battle you every day. These waves are called day players, they are called shooting schedules. Don't let them influence you. Those waves are going to go away and you're still going to be there. Don't compete with them. If somebody wants to steal a scene from you, let them steal it. You're going to be there, and they're going to be gone.

You have to learn how to trust the material and director to say, even if I don't compete for this scene, I'm still going to get this scene. I remember talking to Ethan Hawke about this, who was friends with Philip Seymour Hoffman. He had worked with Phil. He says it's just the opposite. I personally believe what you're saying is that you can not take a scene, but Philip... If there was one little piece of chicken left with one little piece of meat on it, and it was in your mouth, he would reach over and pull it out of your mouth.

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Image via Focus Features

That's a great story. Tiffany Haddish is not the person that I would expect in this role. Can you just touch on why you wanted her in this role?

SCHRADER: I've done this before. The first person I saw do it was for Scorsese with Albert Brooks. If you cast a comic in a straight role, they'll make it interesting. They'll make it more interesting. I've done it with Cedric (the Entertainer) and (Richard) Pryor. When names were being suggested to me of actresses in this category and Tiffany's name was suggested, I said that's interesting. Let's say if she might want to do this... also, because you are expanding their work horizons because people don't think of them as straight actors. They're willing to take a financial hit. I remember Cedric said to me after the film was over... He turned to me and he said, "I didn't know so many people liked serious movies."

That is an interesting answer. Thanks so much for your time.