[Editor's note: The following contains some spoilers for She-Hulk: Attorney at Law.]Jessica Gao, head writer and executive producer of the Disney+ series She-Hulk: Attorney at Law, was so focused on writing for Marvel that she kept pitching to Marvel Studios President Kevin Feige, to no avail. Never completely discouraged from her mission, even though three project rejections tested her determination, her commitment to bringing the character of She-Hulk to the screen lead her to the position she’s in now, with a nine-episode comedy series about a 30-something attorney named Jennifer Walters (Tatiana Maslany), who finds herself specializing in superhuman-oriented legal cases while also balancing life as a green 6-foot-7-inch superpowered Hulk.

During this 1-on-1 interview with Collider, Gao talked about how nothing can ever fully prepare you for working with Marvel Studios, how getting this job was something of a birthday gift, how everything clicked as she saw Maslany take on the role, why the character backstory ended up moving around in the episodes until it finally landed in the pilot, how the most memorable end credits scene came about, being proud of the fact that they’re able to have a show that’s not only sex-positive but horny forward, the fun of playing with familiar characters like Wong (Benedict Wong), the beauty of the friendship between Jen and her BFF Nikki (Ginger Gonzaga), the CGI, and already knowing where a second season would go, if they get to have one.

Collider: What has been the most surprising aspect of making She-Hulk, especially hearing that this has been a three-year journey that you’ve taken?

JESSICA GAO: It’s hard to say just because everything is new. There’s nothing that can prepare you for working with Marvel Studios, so every new element is surprising. One of the most surprising things is just how much goes into every second of it. Even up to the premiere, I was still working on the show. That, to me, is probably the most surprising thing. They really will keep working on things and keep tweaking things, until the very end.

You’ve said that you were rejected by Marvel three times previously, with two of those times being Black Widow and Shang-Chi. Were you determined to keep going back until something finally clicked? How do you not get discouraged?

GAO: How do you keep facing rejection? Initially, I started out because I was so laser-focused on trying to write a Marvel movie that I was willing to put up with any rejection. I was just thrilled that I got to pitch to Kevin [Feige], and that I got to meet Kevin. I was like, “Okay, well, if pitching and rejecting is how I keep getting to hang out with Kevin for an hour at a time, that’s fine.” But I will say, Shang-Chi was the third rejection, and at that point, I did get discouraged because I thought, “Well, come on, if you’re not going to hire me for the Chinese Marvel superhero, what are you going to hire me for then?” That would’ve been it. So, at that point, it really started feeling like, “Okay, let’s have some dignity here. Stop chasing this man who will not commit to you.” That’s what it felt like. I did get discouraged, but then, because I was so dead set on She-Hulk and I had been threatening arson to them over She-Hulk, when they finally announced that they were doing a She-Hulk show, I was like, “Well, this is the thing. This is the one thing that will pull me out and get me to go back on my loud declarations that I was done with them.”

What was your reaction when you found out that they were going to give you this show?

GAO: I was thrilled. I was so happy. And it was two days before my birthday, so it really felt like the greatest gift. I had a really good feeling about it because I just felt like this project was meant to be for me. Even pitching it, it just felt different. I really, really felt like this was it. This was the one. And I couldn’t believe it. I was so happy.

So, when you go into Marvel and you pitch something and you don’t get it, do you just never hear back? Do they give you a really polite phone call, telling you that they’re going in a different direction? How do they handle that part of it?

GAO: They tell your agent. Your agent tells you. You’re just on pins and needles.

What was it then that clicked into place for you, once you had Tatiana Maslany on board? I can’t imagine anybody else doing this, but what was it like to see it go from words on the page to seeing her bring them to life?

GAO: Yeah, I feel the same way as you, now having gone through all of this. I truly can’t imagine anybody else playing this [character]. That’s a weird feeling because we wrote all the first drafts of the scripts without knowing who we were writing for. At that point, it could have been anyone in our heads. It was Schrodinger’s She-Hulk. But now, having worked with Tatiana and seen her as She-Hulk, I truly cannot imagine anybody else who could have been Jen Walters the way she was, and She-Hulk the way she was.

It really was day one, the moment she set foot on set. It was miraculous the way a few moments prior, there were just words on a page, and then, all of a sudden, it was a real person in front of us. And she also infused so much of herself into this character too. She brought so much more than what was just on the page. I think one of her many gifts is that she cares so much about character. She has such great instincts about character, and she immediately can be so present and inhabit this person that you just believe it. You can see the whole of a human being in front of you, and it’s not a character to you anymore. It’s just she is Jen. Jen Walters is in front of you, and she’s talking to you, and you’re her little friend that she’s telling all these asides to.

I thought it was interesting to learn that most of the pilot that we see now was actually episode eight, and that you moved up that origin story. Why did you initially want to hold that back, and how do you think that works better where it is now?

GAO: Yeah, it actually moved around quite a bit because, when we first wrote it in the writers’ room, it was episode four. I always wanted to start the show in situ, where we get right into it. I thought, “Let’s just get to know her and what her life is now, and then, once you spend a couple of episodes getting to know her, we’ll reveal all the backstory and that’ll put a lot of the things you were watching about her in context, as far as why she was so reluctant and why she was at this point in her life and why we were meeting her at this point in her life.” And then, it was during production that we decided to push it to episode eight. I remember there was a lot of discussion. Honestly, I was probably was in a fugue state. I don’t actually remember what the catalyst was of moving it to episode eight, but we did, and that’s what it was for a very long time, until we were in post-production.

Months into post-production, Kevin and everybody at Kevin’s level, wanted to move it to the first episode, and I fought them tooth and nail. But, I understand it. I think it’s just because we underestimated, or at least I did, people’s familiarity with this character. Because I knew this character, inside and out, and she was always my favorite in the comics, I really took for granted that everybody would know who she was, how she got these powers, and her relationship to Bruce. I just took for granted that everybody would know this, but not a lot of people are familiar with her. People who watched it, test audiences, really wanted to know more about her. They were having trouble. It was the elephant in the room, and they couldn’t get past it. So, I lost the argument.

But it worked out.

GAO: Yes. And here’s the thing, I’m totally happy to have a premise pilot and start with an origin story. I just wish I could have designed it that way.

Obviously, the most memorable end credit scene is the Captain America scene. I very much appreciated getting confirmation on that bit of information, but who is the one that had to go to Kevin Feige to actually get that official confirmation? What was that conversation like?

GAO: My approach to the show has always been, “Let’s just put it in the script and see if anyone says anything.” I try not to ask permission and just be told you can’t do something. And so, we started using it as a runner, Jen’s obsession with Captain America’s virginity, because she clearly has a crush on him. It was just a running gag throughout the entire first season. There are all these little moments where she’s clearly been pestering her friends, talking about this ad nauseam. It was just an obsession for her. And it was actually Kevin who voluntarily said, “Let’s give them the answer.” And I was like, “What do you mean? There’s an answer, and we can tell people?” He was the one who actually pitched that. Kevin has such great ideas. I have multiple times tried to hire him in the writers’ room, but he politely declines. He has such great ideas, and that was his idea to answer that question. It’s canon because it came from Kevin.

What was it like to have that conversation with Tatiana Maslany and to have her read the scene? What was her reaction to it?

GAO: She’s so game to play with everything. She gets the humor and the tone of the show, to a T, and so she was all about it.

Has anyone told Chris Evans about this scene? Does he know about it?

GAO: I don’t know. I would love to know. I would also love for him to just find out, organically.

I think he also has a sense of humor about things.

GAO: I’m sure. You can’t convince me that Chris Evans isn’t a perfect person.

Did you always know that you were going to do these end-credit scenes for every episode? Was that something that evolved? Was it just something where you had these scenes that didn’t necessarily fit directly in the episode?

GAO: I love end-credit scenes. I love staying in the theater and waiting for the end credit scenes for all Marvel movies. I love end-credit scenes that aren’t in Marvel movies. I love end-credit scenes in any movie. It just always feels like an extra special little treat. It feels like a little reward for your patience. It’s always a fun bonus. So, it was always just a part of it. I always wanted end credit scenes. And for comedy writers, if you tell them they get to write more jokes, they’re gonna write more jokes.

You’ve talked about how important the scene with Jen in the bathroom was to you, and how you fought to keep that in the show. One of the scenes that really stood out for me was the one-night stand because that’s obviously true to life, or those apps wouldn’t exist, but Marvel doesn’t usually show that side of people, especially with their superheroes. What was that conversation like? How did that come about? What’s it like to actually get to bring a bit of the sexy times into the MCU?

GAO: That is one of the things I’m proudest of, with this show. The show is not only sex-positive, but horny-forward. That story really started from a place of character and emotion. We talked about, what would it be like for Jen to date, post-She-Hulk? Because they look so different, they’re probably gonna attract different types of men, but also there are just changes in how people treat her and how they see her, and how devastating it would be to so starkly see and understand that somebody prefers one over the other, and clearly who she is on the inside is not enough for this person. And to also find that out, after sharing such intimacy with the person, and feeling happy and safe in the moment, and then having the rug pulled out from under her, would just be so devastating. That’s really where all of that started.

You spend half the episode, falling in love with him the way she does. He comes off as such a perfect date. He wants to hear all about her. He wants to split fries. He’s reading feminist literature. And then, the cold hard truth of reality hits and it’s so terrible for her that your heart really breaks for her. Tatiana’s performance, in that moment, was so wonderful because she didn’t go too big with it. She gives such nuanced performances, and in that moment, you see how devastating it is for her, but you also see that she’s trying to cover for it and not show how much it hurts. It just makes it so much more heartbreaking to see her trying to be brave.

I think my new slogan when it comes to the MCU is, “Wong can do no wrong.” What’s it like to get to write and create new story for a character like that, that everybody loves? Is it scary? Is it nerve-wracking? Is it fun? How do you stay true to his voice while finding new ways to add to that character?

GAO: It’s pure fun. It wasn’t scary at all. It was pure fun because the most fun aspect of making the show is being able to pull these characters, where you only see them in dramatic moments and in these very serious, intense situations. Everyone can’t be at a 10, at all times, in this heightened state of saving the universe. There are times where they have to just be chill and living regular life. And so, those are the moments we’re drawing from. And Benny [Wong] is so funny. He just showed up, very game for everything. He got it right away. That’s really the best you can hope for, when the actor comes in and they totally get that this is just for fun, and that this is their chance to take a break into comedy for a while. I call it a comedy vacation. They’ll go back and be serious and save the world in the movies, but on our show, they get to just play around in our tone and have fun with it.

And we get to see him just sitting around watching episodes of This is Us.

GAO: Yeah, it was so fun, thinking about where this guy is, at in this point in his discovery of Western pop culture, and also just what Wong is doing in his downtime. And then, there’s the juxtaposition of him with Madisynn, which is just so magical because he’s a serious guy, and he’s paired with this polar opposite, but also, their dynamic does work.

It seems like it was not that long ago that we felt like we weren’t ever going to see any of the Marvel Netflix characters again, so being here with Matt Murdock and Daredevil is very exciting. When it comes to a character like Daredevil, does that come about because you come up with the story, and then convince Marvel to let you do it? Does Marvel come to you and say, “Okay, you’re doing this law show, so we have this lawyer that would be perfect for you”?

GAO: Daredevil was a special case. Most of the time, what we do is mine the movies and the comics, and we pick a character we wanna use, then we think of what the best and funniest way is for us to use them, and then we ask Marvel, if we can have them. But Daredevil was a dream that we dared not dream. We were like, “Oh, there’s no way. That’s not even on the table.” It never even crossed our minds. And then, we got wind, one day, that not only was he on the table, but Charlie Cox would be coming back as Daredevil, so we immediately started thinking of ways to incorporate him into our show. If we only had a snowball’s chance in hell of getting him on our show, it was still a chance, and we were gonna take it.

What was it like to work with him on the character and have him in a very different world?

GAO: He has such reverence and love for that character. It’s clear that the character meant so much to him, but he also came very game to play around. He was totally up for more funny banter and having this fun dynamic with Jen and She-Hulk. It really feels like the character from the comics. It was so fun because he really does fit into the show so perfectly. They’re both lawyers, and they’re both superheroes. Who else can say that they have that in common? It was just very fun thinking about what their dynamics would be, based on the personalities of these two characters.

I also really love the friendship between Jen and Nikki. I love that it’s so delightful and fun to get to watch these two be really great girlfriends who love and support each other, no matter how crazy the situation is. What does that dynamic bring to the story, for you, and what do you most enjoy about watching the two of them?

GAO: I could watch the two of them all day because they’re so funny together. They have such great chemistry, but they also just feel like real friends. A major theme of the show is just a portrait of womanhood. What is it like being a woman in the MCU? What is it like being a female superhero, and how is it different? We wanted to show the entire breadth of this experience, and a big part of that, of course, is your friendship with your best friend. There’s such a uniqueness and complexity to strong female friendships, and we wanted to show that in a very natural and organic way. You can see how it feels really lived in. Even when they’re just hanging out on the couch, they’re not doing a very movie moment, where they’re sitting across from each other with two glasses of Chardonnay, staring at each other and talking about very important issues and maybe getting a little misty-eyed. No, these are two friends who have been friends for a million years, so they’re not looking at each other, one’s on her phone, one’s on her laptop, and they’re just talking about dumb things and making fun of each other. It might not even make complete sense to us, what they’re talking about, but you get the sense that they’re just completely comfortable with each other. That, to me, is a real friendship. That’s what real friendship feels like. It was just so important to show these two women who love each other, are ride or die for each other, and just exist to be with each other and support each other.

How weird is it to be so much a part of a show, and what goes on with the show and the story you’re telling, on a day-to-day basis on set, but then have this other component with the CGI that’s done separate from what you’re doing? I would imagine that you have a voice in it, but you’re not the one doing the CGI, so what’s it like to have to wait to see how that component will turn out?

GAO: It’s true. I just had to accept, from the get-go, that Marvel is a gigantic machine that’s a huge, lumbering, moving machine, which means that it’s going to go, with or without you. You can either just join the ride, get out of the way, or you can get run over by the machine. At a certain point, you just have to give in because the machine is too big. It’s bigger than you. But I think the VFX team did such a great job of capturing and maintaining Tatiana’s performance. Because she is such a nuanced actor, the fear would be that it doesn’t translate. Once you do it all, that performance in her face could end up not translating. They did such an amazing job of keeping and enhancing her actual facial performance. It’s no small feat.

With the first four episodes, we only see a glimpse of Titania. What can you say about the effect she’ll have in the story you’re telling and in later episodes this season?

GAO: At the very end of the fourth episode, we set it up where there’s gonna be bigger conflict. You’ll see what that conflict is in the very next episode. We’ll start to see Titania a lot more. But with the first few episodes, we just wanted to seed her in there because in the comics she was this gnat that was always buzzing around She-Hulk. It was never like, “Oh, Titania’s gonna destroy the city.” It was always, “Titania has come up with yet another way to come after Jen.” That’s really what we’ve tried to preserve in the show.

I love that you have Mark Linn-Baker as the father in this. I think he’s so fantastic. There’s something just so lovely about him. How did he end up cast in the show? Who had that idea? What has it been like to have him there?

GAO: He was on a list from Sarah Finn and Jason Stamey, our casting directors. He was just perfect. He came in, and he was perfect. He just exudes warmth and fatherly love and support. He’s never judgmental to her. They have such a special father-daughter relationship that when you watch them, you really feel like, “Oh, they have a special little father/daughter friendship.” Morris is Jen’s guy, who she goes to for everything. She can trust him, and she knows that she can confide in him and tell him everything, and that he’ll listen and support her and love her. He’s never gonna judge her for anything. It’s just so wonderful. And Mark, he just really exudes that energy. He brought his daughter, Ruby, to the premiere and afterwards, I asked her if she thought this was an accurate portrayal of her dad, and she said it totally was. He’s said things in the show that he’s actually said to her in real life.

What are the biggest challenges of doing a show like this, with this dual character that’s part superhero, you have court cases, you have the cameos, you’re trying to work in day-to-day life, you have villains, you have end credit scenes, and you’re doing it all in 30 minutes or less. Are there advantages in having that kind of a time constraint to do it all in?

GAO: It’s easy peasy. It’s a piece of cake. No. Thirty-minute comedies are my wheelhouse. That’s where I feel most comfortable. That is the rhythm that I understand, and it feels the most familiar to me. It just feels right. Honestly, balancing the Marvel-ness of everything with the comedy aspect, or the sitcom aspect of it, this 30-minute legal comedy lent itself organically to bringing in Marvel things. Because the episodic nature of the show is that there’s always gonna be some sort of lawsuit or trial, and there’s gotta be somebody attached to that lawsuit or trial. You want the audience to understand that they’re watching a lawsuit, but when that lawsuit ends, you’re not gonna see this person anymore. In real life, after a lawyer represents someone in a case, you understand that it’s done and now the client gets to move on. It’s very built in that we can have people guest star, new characters can come in, and we tell their story through this lawsuit or trial, and then after it’s done, you naturally send them on their merry way.

After spending three years focused on making this first season, where are you with thinking about moving forward?

GAO: Oh, I’m absolutely not thinking about moving forward.

But you must have a whiteboard somewhere that has a list of things you didn’t get to, that could be in a possible second season.

GAO: Yeah. Honestly, even when I pitched the show, I already had an idea of where I would want it to go for another season and what the premise of that season would be. From the beginning, I had ideas of where it would go. But coming from TV, you can’t ever go into a first season show thinking you’re gonna get another season. You have to plan for the fact that this might be one and done, so you have to create a season that feels like it’s telling a complete story, and yet leaves the door open. That’s how I approached it. There are a lot of things that we just couldn’t get to, or had to cut from the first season, and it would be really nice for those things to see the light of day again.

She-Hulk: Attorney at Law is available to stream at Disney+.